Why Flag Versed (Midazolam) ?
Here is a list of the complaints about Versed we commonly encounter:
* Too often, the drug is used in a sneaky or furtive manner. Every manner of lying, cheating and BS-ing has been reported by people who unwittingly received this drug. Knowledgeable people, including medical people, have been given Versed after clearly refusing it.
* Versed is NOT a pain medication. The main effects are AMNESIA and patient compliance. Many patients feel they were mishandled, given inadequate pain management, or both. The impression is that the medical staff tries to hide behind the amnesia the patient is expected to have.
* Paradoxical reactions including anxiety, delirium and aggression. This includes patients attacking or trying to leave. They lose touch with reality, not knowing where they are or what is really occurring.
* Some patients experienced a distorted, nightmarish version of their procedure accompanied by feelings of abandonment and panic. This is often accompanied by the next item:
* A kind of sleep paralysis - patient is aware but cannot move and cannot communicate.
* Amnesia did NOT take place for some patients. Patients recall a bad experience!
* Some patients report a "creepy obedience" overcoming them.
* PTSD. Many patients report symptoms of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder after having this drug.
* Weird panic or anxiety episodes ("flashbacks") for some time (weeks, months, years) post-op.
* Long term memory disruption. Memories formed prior to the use of Versed are lost. Some people are unable to retain new information or complete tasks.
What is Versed?
Versed (Midazolam) is a sedative that causes amnesia. It is commonly administered in combination with anesthesia before and during surgery. It is also commonly used for minor procedures like colonoscopies so that patients won't remember pain and discomfort. However, that does not mean that those sensations will not be experienced.
Why be concerned about Versed?
If you are a person who wishes to be involved in your medical care, want to interact with your treatment providers, and want to be as aware and alert as possible during procedures, then you will want to be aware of this commonly-used drug.
How would you feel if you were given a drug, without your knowledge, that wiped out any memory of events that occurred over a period of hours?
A person who is under the influence of Versed can function, and can even carry on a conversation, but will remember nothing once the drug wears off. The use of Versed can open the door to abuse. If there is mishandling of the patient during procedures the patient will have no memory.
We are not saying that people should never be anesthetized, or that sedation should never be an option, but rather that:
* One should be given a complete description of what is going to be done to them. If Versed (conscious sedation) is to be used, the patient should be aware of the amnesia that will result.
* When possible, you should have a choice about being awake for any procedure or part thereof. We take exception to being denied a choice in those cases where one exists. One reason we have this site is because so many people report being deceived.
* Attention should be paid to the fact that some people find anesthesia very upsetting and may prefer a few minutes of moderate physical discomfort to a longer period of mental discomfort. Versed appears to cause PTSD in some people.
* Having a bad experience blocked from long term memory is not the same as never having had the experience in the first place. We think that if they have to make you forget, then they are not taking adequate steps to manage pain and discomfort.
* Versed is not a requirement for surgery. Medical professionals should be completely honest about the effects, and not try to trick or coerce a patient into having it. It should not be used solely for the profit or convenience of the medical staff.
What can you do?
Watch out for these commonly used phrases:
* "I am giving you something to relax you." This is too often an understatement, given the frequent side effects. This statement also completely avoids mentioning the amnesia Versed causes.
* "You will be given Conscious Sedation." or "You will be awake, but won't remember anything." This means they probably want to use Versed.
* "You will be in La-La Land." How you can be anywhere you don't remember beats us! "La-La Land" would be more like having a large dose of pain killers - you would be awake but not care. With Versed you will be functional but won't remember a thing.
* Beware of "Most People..." When you have a choice with your anesthesia, you should not feel pressured to make a decision based on what "most people" receive.
* "You are not a Doctor " So what? That does not make you uninformed. For all they know other doctors (your primary care physician for starters) may have already told you enough to make an informed decision. Besides, this is no excuse for pushing you to have an amnesia drug!
Insist on answers!
* Remember that anesthesiologists are not employees of the hospital, but they have no problem hiding behind hospital rules when there is a problem.
* Keep in mind that they are working for you, so ultimately YOU are the boss. Most of them will not volunteer anything, so you must be prepared to ask them very specific questions, and be very assertive. A patient advocate, who can be a caring friend or relative, should accompany you to all appointments and procedures and take notes.
* Be sure to find out what your financial liability will be if you are not satisfied.
If you aren't happy, complain!
There are concerned people out there who will accept your feedback. At least we like to think there are a few. They can't read our minds. Complain first to the hospital. They may ask you to put it in writing. Do so. That way there is a record of your complaint. Then, talk to your anesthesiologist. Chances are, he/she works through a group. If the anesthesiologist does not respond, try going to the associates group.
If someone botches a repair job on your car people don't fault you for complaining. But many people feel bad about complaining to a doctor or a hospital, even though they are working on something far more precious - YOU. Don't be intimidated!
Personal Accounts
Kirt's Account:
I had bilateral hernia surgery with laparoscopy. I knew I was facing general anesthesia, but I fell hook line and sinker for the 'I am giving you something to relax you' line before the surgery.
I had what seemed like a good conversation with the anesthesiologist and was feeling like I could trust him, so I thought 'OK I will be a little groggy, but conscious until he puts me to sleep for the main event'. No mention of conscious sedation or Versed was made. Just after I reached the operating table I realized something was happening, and then my memory disappeared in a roar of static.
I awoke to discover that not only had I been put to sleep for the main event, I had even been excluded from the prep.
When I later complained, I was told "Most People are very happy to wake up and have the procedure over with". Well I wasn't, I was livid, and when I was told the above I should have said "that's fine for them, but what does it have to do with me?"
It has been eight months since the surgery and I still feel taken advantage of, treated as if I was a five year-old, and yes, raped of my memory. I cannot see how a trained MD or anyone can justify the withholding of fundamental information like this. Even when I confronted him several weeks after the surgery he still tried to avoid saying I had been given Versed, until I finally said 'you gave me Versed didn't you?' I can only think that there must be a problem with this drug if they don't want to tell you they are using it.
Worse yet, the anesthesiologist's response to my questioning him was to lecture me about how I had to 'trust those who know what they are doing', and told me that I was one of those people who wanted to know everything. Personally I will never trust another anesthesiologist in my life. I wish I had said that, but I was still so shaken from my original experience that I just listened, dumbfounded.
While the surgery was technically successful I will always regard it as a failure because of the above.
Mary's account:
I went in for out-patient abdominal surgery. I had had several surgeries in the past and am not squeamish about surgery.
Prior to being wheeled down to surgery, I was told that they were giving me "something to relax me." I recall getting in the chair and going part way to the OR, but that is where my memory stopped. I have no recall of meeting the surgical team, getting onto the table, etc.
When I awoke, I was very agitated and upset. I remember wondering what had happened to me, with the sense that something very bad had happened but I couldn't remember what. I had finger-mark bruises on my upper arms and several other, larger bruises elsewhere. My neck hurt so bad that I was unable to turn my head for 24 hours.
I was extremely distressed that the hospital had not told me about the effects of versed and experienced severe anxiety for months about the memory gap. I had to go to counseling and was put on an anti-anxiety medication.
When I complained to the hospital, I was patronized and treated like a little kid. I did not feel as if they took me seriously.
Weeks later, I went to use my instant cash card, put it into the machine, and went to enter the PIN number, when I realized, much to my shock, that I had absolutely no idea of what the number was. I had used the same PIN for years. It never did come back. No doubt there are other 'lost' things, but I haven't recognized what they are.
Tim's Account:
I had bilateral hernia repair in September of 2004. The original plan was to use MAC ("Monitored Anesthetic Care"). The anesthesiologist did not explain the effects of Versed and did not explain that the MAC would be initiated in the holding area before I was wheeled to the OR.
The drug was not named. I was only told that from my perspective, the experience would seem like general anesthesia. This did not make sense - it seemed contradictory. The "A" word (amnesia) was not mentioned. I have had numerous operations in the past and my experience led me to assume that the main event would occur in the OR. The anesthesiologist introduced the Versed into the IV while I was still in the holding area. I asked what it was and the reply was simply "benzodiazepines." I know what benzos are and thought I was getting something like Valium. I was shocked when, from my perspective, I found myself in recovery what seemed like a few minutes later.
After surgery I was told that I had a bad reaction to the Versed so they ended up putting me under. The nurse in the PACU said that my legs were shaking and this is why they used general anesthesia. The surgeon's report stated that I was moving my extremities and would not be still. I was also told that I was unable to follow instructions. This is disturbing since I am not squeamish about surgery nor have I ever been out of control like this.
When I later spoke with my anesthesiologist, she used a lot of euphemistic baby talk, describing the amnesia as "making you forgetful" and describing the general anesthesia as "we had to make you more sleepy". My surgeon dodged the bullet saying "We're always ready to do general when we do MAC". This is all BS. Looking back on the experience, my wife and I agree that the anesthesiologist was very deceptive.
I am an electrical engineer. In the weeks after my return to work, I found that I had no recall of certain details of my job. We are very procedure and detail oriented. I found that certain blocks of information seemed to have simply disappeared from my long term memory. What else have I forgotten?
For three years post-op I experienced flashbacks of anxiety that occurred randomly - while at work, while driving, while teaching. These were accompanied by an odd sensation of trying to recall a memory but it refused to come into focus. Very strange, very unsettling - and I never experienced anything like this before exposure to Versed.
I was in my 40's when this happened. I have had several surgeries, numerous emergency room visits and my share of dental work. I never had a bad outcome or cause to complain until my Versed episode.
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684 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 684 Newer› Newest»To Ken:
The nurses work for the doctor not you. There is NOBODY looking out for you! I no longer trust anyone in the medical 'profession'!
So many horror stories! Why don't you all name names? I, for one, want to know who to avoid. If you aren't willing to do so publicly, are any of you willing to tell me via e-mail? bruce54tom@yahoo.com
Amy, I had 3 open reductions on my femur, 2 of them without GA OR Versed. I had the pins removed without a GA or Versed. I had a c-section without Versed and had my arm redone without Versed. What are you trying to tell us here? If we haven't had open heart surgery with aspirin only that we haven't had anything done? As far as getting up and leaving, girl, they gave me so much Versed to quell any further resistance on my part that I was incapable of getting up and leaving. My kid will have to deal with remembering any sort of problem that you describe because I WILL NOT ALLOW HER TO BE INJECTED WITH VERSED FOR ANY REASON! Just because you have a drug like this doesn't mean it should ALWAYS be used. I think that most people can handle almost ALL procedures just fine without the pre-surgical amnesia. In order to avoid Versed you first have to know what it is (information that is deliberately witheld) and you have to write it down on the paperwork along with using the term "'under no circumstances' am I to receive Versed," otherwise they will manufacture excuses to use it in a very devious and underhanded way. All of us here want more control over our medical treatment than we are being allowed! None of us would willingly have let them give us Versed, if we had been told in an honest and forthright fashion what exactly Versed is.
There is a Dermatologist in our area who has been in the news this last week because he was caught reusing dirty sutures and needles on his patients. There is a health warning out because as many as 10,000 people may have exposed to HIV and Hepatitis C . There was a interview with one of his clinic nurses that had quit in 2005 because she knew he was doing this and she said she was too afraid to tell anyone of this. Why was she telling us this now? Does she think we will feel sorry for her because she wanted to protect her job? What ever happened to being anonymous and at least getting someone on this guy. In my opinion I feel she is almost more guilty then the Dr. I am sure almost everyone in that clinic must have known this was going on and they all should be hung with the same rope that will be used on the Dr.
Amy:
I had a broken wrist when I was five and it never hurt, even when they set it. Both bones were snapped in two, I saw the x-ray. The whole experience was rather un-traumatic. They never gave me anything. Like Jackie, I would not give versed to ANYONE under ANY circumstances.
If I have faith in my doctor, there's nothing they can do that bothers me. It's when you don't know the doc or things start to smell fishy that there's cause for concern - and that's exactly the kind of concern you don't want to drug over.
Amy, if you like Versed and agree that people should be informed, then why are you on this blog taking an apparently contrary stand? I *do* think Versed is a bad drug, but my biggest complaint is the deception that seems to consistently surround it.
I don't think Versed should be allowed out. I no more trust the medical community at large with Versed than I would trust a band of teenagers with the keys to my house and car. The potential and temptation for abuse is just way too great.
Bruce: People can post about their doctor on http://ratemds.com/social/.
I am an anesthesiologist, board certified and fellowship trained in obstetric anesthesia. I love my practice at a community hospital. I am interested in these comments by lay people, patients and appreciate any concerns regarding any of our anesthetic drugs. Each anesthetic is customized for each patient according to their medical condition, the procedure and planned accordingly. Versed is often used to provide sedation, anxiolysis, and amnesia. Most patients don't want intraoperative recall and versed is just one of several agents that we use.
Patient safety and comfort is paramount. I always tell patient that they will likely not remember events after IV sedation is given.
If you don't want anesthetics refuse medical treatments and see Britany Spears next time you get sick.
Hey David,
Interesting post - you start out by saying you are interested in our comments, appreciate our concerns, and customize our anesthetic - and then end with a hostile (defensive maybe?) attitude. Is this the kind of vibe you will throw me if I end up being one of your patients?
If you have good luck with Versed on some of your patients, then fine. I personally do not want Versed or anything like it again. A nice synopsis of my concerns was posted by Mlgsings (Tue Sep 18, 06:51:00 PM).
I just might choose Britney Spears over some of the folks my posters have encountered. Thanks for the suggestion.
Regarding the amnesia aspect of Versed, etc., I just plain do not want that part of my brain affected, thank you.
It is not so much that I am trying to hold on to memories as I do not want to induce amnesia. The result may be the same, but please understand where I am coming from.
Others have posted here saying they would honor a patient's refusal of Versed. Are you saying you do not?
To Dr. David the anesthesiologist:
I think you're misinterpreting what many of these posters' grievance is about. Versed is not an anesthetic, so I don't understand your sarcastic comment about we should refuse medical treatment and go see Britney Spears. Not everybody wants or needs Versed to comfortably get through surgical procedures, and it's not right to just give it anyway.
If you're giving Versed to obstetrical patients (I would suppose during C-sections) then you could be doing these ladies a cruel disservice. Askapatient.com has a horror story submitted by a woman who got Versed for a repeat c-sec and as a result missed the birth of her child even though she was "awake" and talking to her husband during the delivery. She is now traumatized and depressed and has sought out hypnotherapy to try to regain her memory.
It's a shame that our medical system has become such a "machine" that patients are "processed" through, where chemicals are preferred to human interaction for expediency's sake.
missings,
most c-sections are done under spinal or epidural without ant IV sedation. Occosionally patients ask for IV sedation after delivery. Rarely general anesthesia is used in emergency or if spinal/epidural is contraindicated.
Most anesthesiologists in my group use propofol for colonoscopy. I either use straight propofol or give 2 mg of versed then propofol depending on patients medical condition.
I would like to know what your anesthetic plan for a coronary artery bypass surgery in a patient with severe triple vessel coronary artery disease.
David,
The lady with the bad c-sec experience b/c of versed was given it b/c the epidural placement which wasn't going smoothly (it was hurting her). They offered her "something to calm her down" with no explanation of what it was or that it would cause amnesia. The link is at http://www.askapatient.com/viewrating.asp?drug=18654&name=VERSED scroll down to the 4/30/07 post for c-sec/tubal ligation.
As for colonoscopy, most people really don't need all the drugs they're given for the procedure. There have been studies showing great patient satisfaction w/ unsedated colonoscopy/endoscopy where only a narcotic if anyhting was given. I understand in Europe they don't routinely dope patients up for colonoscopies/endoscopies either, it's an American standard of care.
As for coronary bypass, that's another story altogether. Most everyone here has talked about outpatient/elective surgery and procedures, or surgery that was necessary but not as drastic. So I'm not even going to go there.
missings,
i agree with you. i don't give versed to laboring patients. out of several thousand epidurals i have never given versed to facilitate placement. also i think an anesthesiologist is not needed for routine endoscopy. only if the patients are very sick or have severe cadiopulmonary disease.
Dear David, I can assure you that if I ever (God Forbid!) need open heart surgery I will DEFINATELY want to be put out!!!!!!!! However, amnesia drugs are NOT going to be part of the anesthesia plan. I KNOW that Propofol and ESPECIALLY VERSED are not going to be in the plan, nor is Demerol. The other drugs, Desoflurane, Fentanyl and Benadryl don't seem to cause me the extreme anxiety that the amnesia drugs do. I may even have some succynylcholine (sp) because I have always fought anesthetics and have to be strapped down to the bed. So there you have MY plan for severe coronary disease. I will deal with having a car tail pipe shoved down my throat, probably better than I dealt with it while helpless under Versed. As far as Brittany goes, I wouldn't trust her with my dog and if my Doctor exibits signs of drunkeness or drug use like her, I will give him the boot, just as I would dismiss Ms. Spears. Come on... I am an ADULT and can easily deal with any preoperative care (or any outpatient procedure) that I may need without the amnesia. I will be checking the first name of my anesthesiologist by the way and will try to ascertain if he is YOU! (It actually might be good to have YOU because you already pretty much know my attitude and wouldn't try to second guess the anesthesia plan...)
As an anesthesiologist I am amazed at the idea that there are people pissed because they cant remember their surgeries!!Anesthesiologists have paid huge sums of money to patients who had recall of intraoperative events (even though these occurrences are rare). Yet here is an entire website dedicated to people ignorant enough to think that they would benefit from remembering their surgeries or better yet be able to direct their surgeries or make decisions/provide input during their procedures! There have been centuries of research dedicated to providing patients with exactly the experiences that these people had!!
Do these people insist on sitting in the cockpit of the planes in which they fly? insist upon providing direction to the conductors of the trains upon which they ride? would they interfere with and insist upon directing firemen extinguishing a fire at their home? Yet they believe that somehow without medical education themselves, they are qualified to direct their surgical procedures! You place your very life into the hands of your doctors when you undergo anesthesia-if you are willing to do that you should be willing to trust their decisions/plan.
We use versed to relieve anxiety, to supplement other anesthetic agents to provide less side effects/faster emergence/less delirium.
Have your next surgery without anesthesia. Seriously. Your kind make me want to quit medicine altogether.
Better yet, develop the perfect anesthetic drug for us, and we'll be happy to use it.
I've been involved in the excellent care of many thousands of patients, and will continue to use Versed.
Maybe you SHOULD quit the medical profession. Obviously you are in it for the money and have no intention of actually treating a person as a human being unless they have a medical degree! As for James' analogy of flying the plane, sir, the pilot of said plane is not going to do anything PERSONAL to me, is he/she? If I were on one of the 9/11 planes I would definately have interfered with the "PILOT" who meant to do me harm. I have a personality and *I* am in charge of what happens to my body and especially my brain. Get over it. Believe me when I say that if I can help it I will NEVER have another elective surgery and subject myself to people who have as much concern for my well being as you show.
James said...
"As an anesthesiologist I am amazed at the idea that there are people pissed because they cant remember their surgeries!! Anesthesiologists have paid huge sums of money to patients who had recall of intraoperative events (even though these occurrences are rare). Yet here is an entire website dedicated to people ignorant enough to think that they would benefit from remembering their surgeries ... "
Tim replies:
Sir, your post is way off target and competely overblown.
I don't care if I remember a surgery or not. I just don't want drugs that cause amnesia. To make an analogy, it is not that I am trying to walk towards the south - my intention is to walk away from the north.
There have been several times where I was given the choice to remain awake and I did so. I am not squeamish about surgery and I will go the route that involves the least amout of drugs when the option is available. We all get that some procedures require us to be asleep.
As stated elsewhere, one of my personal gripes is that I was lied to about this drug. This site also discusses the fact that many people have experienced a lot of deception from providers of Versed.
James said:
" . . . or better yet be able to direct their surgeries or make decisions/provide input during their procedures!"
and
" Yet they believe that somehow without medical education themselves, they are qualified to direct their surgical procedures!"
Tim replies:
That is a leap. We are not suggesting we tell you how to hold the knife.
James said:
" You place your very life into the hands of your doctors when you undergo anesthesia-if you are willing to do that you should be willing to trust their decisions/plan."
Tim replies:
It is because of the treatment I had my trust has been damaged!
James said:
" We use versed to relieve anxiety, to supplement other anesthetic agents to provide less side effects/faster emergence/less delirium."
Tim replies:
You and I both know Versed causes some people to freak out. Thanks to the amnesia, I had to learn in a round about way that the drug had bad effects on me.
Trust indeed.
To James and "anesthesiologist" from Wed Nov 28:
It occurs to me that you did not really read this blog and get the main gripes here.
I am tired of repeating this, so let me suggest you read the posts on Tue Sep 18 by Mlgsings and I. Mlgsings provides a clear synopsis.
James, you mentioned trusting the anesthesiologists "plan". The person who handled my hernia fix pushed her own plan on me, lied to both my wife and I about options, and in retrospect, made a HUGE effort to conceal the true effects of the drugs she planned to use.
I was outraged to learn after my hernia repair that plenty of people have had the same surgery under local. I have had many procedures under local and many ER visits - you couldn't ask for a better patient, even when I was 11 years old and a home made firework half shredded my hand.
If you can't handle the heat of your profession, then yeah, maybe you SHOULD quit.
I love my dentist. In the past, my family knew a surgeon who ended up operating on each one of us at one time or another. He is still a friend. The plastic surgeon who treated my hand as a child and later performed two operations on same is a highly respected guy who did good work on me. My wife and I have a dermatologist we love and he's great with a knife when the time comes. In short, I have had plenty of medical folks enter my life who were fantastic.
Then I get this jerk-off who bungled my anesthesia for my hernia fix. After the versed freaked me out, they used general. I had side effects for almost three YEARS afterward. All because the douche had her own "plan" and did not honestly present the options.
Here's another point you can chew on:
Before the hernia repair, I did research and then discussed options with my surgeon. We discussed at least three approaches to the hernia fix. I rejected laparoscopy in favor of open. He agreed that was less painful and I felt that http://www.hernia.org/ had some sane, EVIDENCE BASED ideas on hernia repair.
My surgeon discussed the operation with me like a professional, and treated me like an informed adult.
We worked TOGETHER and chose a plan that we AGREED on, and satisfied BOTH of us.
James, you made a number of analogies (planes, trains, etc.) which miss the point entirely.
No sane person would fault me for trying to buy the right house or choosing the right realtor. No sane person would fault me for trying to get my car fixed right the first time, and not get ripped off in the process. Why do you think surgery is somehow different? Of all things in this world, this is the most serious. It not only involves a lot of money, but it affects your health and your life.
I did not appreciate being lied to about my anesthesia options and then getting way more than I wanted - and way more than any honest, evidence based provider would have used.
Based on my past experiences, I am certain that my hernia fix would have been just fine if the jerk had not second-guessed me and imposed this obviously unpredictable drug on me. It was a flaming case of "it ain't broke, don't fix it".
I am the woman who has recently been referred to - the one who had the C-section. I am the woman and mother who cannot remember her daughter's birth. I am the woman and mother who cannot remember her daughter's first smile, weeks after the Versed. I am the woman and mother who struggles to remember the most minute, mundane, and also significant things on a daily basis. I am the woman and mother who had to fight back tears yesterday morning, as her 5 year old son shouted, "Why can't you remember anything anymore?!?!?" What was I to say? That the mean doctor stole mommy's memory? No. I can't do that, because I don't want my 5 year old to be afraid of doctors. Doctors are SUPPOSED to help us! A 5 year old typically already fears visits to the doctor's office. Am I to make his fears worse?
I am terrified by those who use this drug on pregnant women. I've done my research. I've found information from paramedics manuals and hospital manuals, stating that Versed is not to be used on a pregnant woman unless she is having seizures, or her or her infant's life are in danger. Yet some in the medical profession still choose to use it? What the hell? Do medical professionals not even know the side effects this drug can have on the baby? I'm guessing not, or they would never use it.
I did not see my daughter for over 4 hours after her birth. The nursery told my husband it was because her body temperature dropped during her bath. I think this is crap. One of the side effects I read about several times is hypothermia. Yes, Versed can cause hypothermia in the newborn. And I believe in the depths of my being that the anesthesiologist who chose to give me Versed WITHOUT MY KNOWLEDGE OR CONSENT also caused my daughter to be hypothermic.
I requested my medical records. Interesting that much of the paperwork was missing. Interesting that the writing was such chicken-scratch that even other medical professionals haven't been able to interpret it. The one thing I could make out: "Versed given for extreme anxiety." Again - pure crap. I was not extremely anxious. I was in extreme agony. I had an epidural with the birth of my first child, and was actually able to continue conversing and joking with the anesthesiologist while he inserted the needle into my spine - no problems at all. The anesthesiologist who did my spinal for this second birth was torturing me, pure and simple. I was told I'd feel 2 pricks, and the first would hurt the most. No. Not the case. I felt 3; each one more excruciating than the last. I would not wish such pain on anyone.
I did see a hypnotherapist. I've been put under by 2, thus far. Both times, sadly, the birth of my daughter was not able to be remembered. However, both times, I could feel the incredible pain of my incision - I could actually feel the pain of being cut. Does this mean that the spinal never really worked, even when it was eventually inserted? Does this mean the hospital chose to depend on the Versed to kill my memory of the pain, rather than using the proper anesthesia? Even now, with my beautiful 8 month old daughter, I still suffer great anguish as a result of not remembering her birth. Even now, I cannot stand to see a TV show of someone giving birth, or hear of someone's birth experience - because it reminds me that I don't remember my own daughter's. Will I ever be normal again? Will I ever not have to live in fear of losing memories? Will I ever be able to experience day-to-day life without bursting into bouts of rage? Without becoming a sobbing mess? I'm tired of living this way. I know my son is. And I know my husband is, too. I never had problems controlling my anger before. Now my husband is inquiring if a hypnotherapist can help me with my anger and rage issues. My daughter has never known the person I was; will she ever? Or will she have to grow up believing that mommy has always been horribly forgetful, overly emotional, and quick to get angry?
Please. There has to be a way to stop this: the damage that has already been done; as well as to prevent it from continuing to be done to other, unsuspecting people.
Dear Dianaclt,
Thank you for taking the time to share your experience. As a mom of 4 little ones myself, I feel for you and can only imagine what your experience has done to your soul. You had a traumatic birth, and you're experiencing symptons of post-partum depression and/or post traumatic stress disorder. You may feel isolated in your plight, but please be reassured that you are NOT alone. I myself developed PPD after my second child was born, and I did not have a traumatic birth experience, in fact, I was blessed to birth my son at home, but my support system fell through (someone who pledged to babysit my oldest while I recovered dropped out the day after the birth, and my husband had to work) and I got so overwhelmed I nearly lost my sanity. I was full of anger and resentment. Then as the weeks turned to months I started to wish I was dead b/c I felt useless, unable to care for my babies or myself. I finally went to see my midwife and she got me on some meds, which have helped immensely. I also try to have regular hired help at home, b/c I simply cannot do it all as a wife and mom at home by myself.
Your chronic forgetfulness postpartum is more likely a symptom of being spread thin being a mommy of two AND recovering from surgery while still having to do your duties as a mom, possibly worsened by dealing with emotional trauma. Get people to help you out at home as much as you can! And find a therapist who has experience with PPD and PTSD. Also find and consider joining an ICAN chapter in your area (http://ican-online.net/, the Int'l Cesarean Awareness Network). Here are some other websites that deal with birth trauma:
http://www.birthtraumasupport.info/ (this is a support group in Seattle, but they have info and resources you can look at)
http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/jkluchar1995/
http://www.tabs.org.nz/index.htm
http://www.birthtraumaassociation.org.uk/index.htm
BTW, Versed and other benzodiazepines are contraindicated in pregnant and lactating mothers b/c the meds do pass to the baby. You should definitely file complaints with the hospital and your state's medical licensing board. Even if no disciplining action is taken, it will still be on file. I am praying for you that you find the help you need and can enjoy your baby and make up for lost time, whether you regain the memories of her birth or not. If you wish to e-mail me privately my email address is melodie at mom2momcentral dot com.
Melodie
Thank you for your concern. But from what I've read about the side effects of Versed, I believe the anger, rage, forgetfulness are a result of that. I've spoken with my doctor and hypnotherapist about the symptoms - they don't feel the symptoms are PPD or anything along those lines. Neither does a friend of mine who does counsel women with PPD. I don't feel spread thin as a mother - my son is in Kindergarten (gone from 8:30-2:30, M-F) and extremely helpful, as are my husband, friends and family. When the hypnotherapist put me under, in an attempt to regain memories of my daughter's birth, it released the anguish and hurt of not remembering. I was conscious during the hypnotherapy - and the memories are not seemingly retrievable, though she was sure she could retrieve them. She tried several methods to try and retrieve the memories, but the results were that I just couldn't stop sobbing because there is a wall keeping me from those precious memories. Regardless, I am enjoying my sweet baby immensely. I just still hold out hope that I'll remember the beginnings of her life. Many moms I know say it's no big deal - they've forgotten their children's birth anyway, but I remember my son's birth vividly, and it's something we enjoy talking about together. What will happen when my daughter wants to talk about her birth?
As far as action against the hospital, etc., I did look into suing. The lawyer said that, though the hospital did not follow the right procedures regarding consent, info, etc., I do not have a case. Why? Basically, because they did not permanently mess up or kill my baby. Lovely. I have typed up a letter that I plan to send to the hospital admin., anesthesiology dept., and owners, but I need to re-work it. I wrote it at a time when I was still highly emotional. As a result, the letter is currently about 8 pages long, and I've been told by numerous sources that no medical professional will ever take the time to read it. I'll get it out there. And I tell my story to lots of expectant mothers, so they can have "NO VERSED" documented in their files. And I tell my story to anyone going in for any kind of procedure, so they can also protect themselves. I do have faith that somehow, things will get better - that maybe I can protect a few people that otherwise might have been subjected to this horrible drug, as I was.
This describes my treatment to a tee:
"Manipulation of patients includes lying, omitting essential information or taking advantage of a patient's vulnerabilities to gain cooperation. Manipulation is unethical because it violates trust and exploits the inequality of power in the patient-doctor relationship."
http://www.asahq.org/
Newsletters/2001/03_01/vannorman.htm
Mon Dec 03, 12:14:00 PM EST
I just wanted to let everyone know that after alot of freaking out, I finally had the "C-Word" this past Tuesday. I had a two hour conversation with the doctor telling him about two bad reactions that I've had to Versed in the past and I insisted that the procedure be done without it. I really wanted to do it with no drugs at all, but he and the nurse insisted that I have at least a small amount of Demerol, which I gave in and agreed to.
I was awake for the whole procedure, talking to the Dr and nurses while I watched everything on the monitor. I even watched a removal of a polyp. I have to say that except for maybe 2-3 seconds of MILD discomfort when the Dr reached the transverse colon, the procedure was not in the least bit painful or uncomfortable. I will have to go back in a year to have another one done unfortunately because the polyp was large and pre-cancerous, but at least I know what the test consists of, and that I will not use any drugs next time.
Don't let anyone scare you about HAVING to be knocked out and drugged into oblivion for a colonoscopy. It's totally not necessary. If you've given birth or had a gall bladder attack, having a colonoscopy is nothing compared to that. I just relaxed, went in with a good attitude and kept telling myself that it wouldn't be painful...and it wasn't. More people should do this w/o drugs. It's actually interesting watching and seeing what you look like on the inside.
Feel free to email me with any questions or comments.
serialmom12@yahoo.com
There are some sites talking about intra-operative awareness, also mentioned here on this site. The medical staff are ridiculing people who claim to have intra operative awareness when they have (only) had conscious sedation. I have to say that from a patient perspective that intra operative awareness is exactly the same whether you are given Versed or a GA. You are awake and aware, unable to move, and you go from knowing nothing, into awareness. This awareness under Versed can cause the exact same PTSD as awaking under Desflurane or whatever other drug(s) they give you to cause unconsciousness. Don't let them try to fool you. Awareness under anesthesia is the same as awareness under Versed. It can and is TRAUMATIC!
Serialmom12
It sounds like you had to put up a good fight to get past the dr wanting to push the drugs in you, but you prevailed. Maybe you could tell us what you had to do to get them to leave you alone. I going to have this same fight some day again in the future, and some pointers from you would more then helpful. How did the Dr act before and after you told him about your choice not to use the drugs? How did the nurse act, was she all defensive of the dr, was she even a little concerned about your concerns. Did you believe they were telling you the truth? When the time came how did you protect yourself from them trying to sneek the Versed in with the Demerol (Demerol can cause some sedation). Did you make any changes to the signed consent form. Any information I can get from you will be added to my arsenal. You will not only be helping me but also many others. After my problems with Versed and also a lying Dr, never again will I allow Versed or any other sedation or amnesia causing drug to be put in me again. Thank-You
There was an article in the Washington Post ["Snip and Tuck" - Sept. 27 (2005?)] where the
reporter describes his vasectomy. They used Versed AND put him under.
Here is one doctor's response to "Snip and Tuck":
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn
/content/article/2005/10/08
/AR2005100800185_5.html
"Vasectomy: Don't Get Snippy"
You say in the headline of the story (re: "Snip and Tuck" [Sept.
27])"One Thing You Don't Want to Lose When Having a Vasectomy Is a
Sense of Humor." However, you might lose it after reading my comments.
First, you were at risk of dying! The mortality risk for women who
undergo tubal ligation is 3.6 to 4.0 per 100,000 procedures, with half
being due to complications from general anesthesia. This is not the
case with vasectomy. Why? Because most vasectomists never do routine
vasectomy under general anesthesia.
Your doctor will say he never had a death related to vasectomy under
general anesthesia, and it's no wonder. The probability would be about
1 out 50,000 procedures, and I doubt he had done that many. You could
have been his first!
Vasectomy should always be performed under local anesthesia unless
there is a major contraindication. I do about 1,000 vasectomies per
year, and I also "like to focus on what I'm doing" without putting my
patients at undue risk. You fear needles? You could have sought a
physician doing the no-needle jet injection anesthesia technique. The
cost of travel would probably have been less than that of general
anesthesia.
In addition, the vasectomy you had was a non-evidence-based procedure.
Your surgery was performed in 20 minutes and you had two sutures on
your scrotum. Obviously you did not benefit from no-scalpel vasectomy
(NSV). NSV has been proved to be associated with a lower risk of
surgical complications and is now the world standard. An NSV should be
performed in less than 10 minutes with local anesthesia.
Michel Labrecque, MD, PhD
Department of Family Medicine
University of Laval
Quebec City
Tim, I read the original article, and the doc, Dr. Laurent, says he "likes to sedate" so he can concentrate on what he's doing even though that is NOT the norm. He is more concerned with his personal comfort level than the safety of his patients, not to mention it's way more expensive to go to the hospital and use an OR. I would think insurance wouldn't pay for vasectomy in a hospital w/o a good medical reason.
Here's the original article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/26/AR2005092601345.html
BTW, the reporter/patient still had to get local injections b/c versed, fentanyl, and propofol are not anesthetics - sheesh, I can't believe the head anesthesiologist of a hospital would agree to do GA's for vasectomies, it's just way beyond the boundaries of SOC.
Tim, I read the original article, and the doc, Dr. Laurent, says he "likes to sedate" so he can concentrate on what he's doing even though that is NOT the norm. He is more concerned with his personal comfort level than the safety of his patients, not to mention it's way more expensive to go to the hospital and use an OR. I would think insurance wouldn't pay for vasectomy in a hospital w/o a good medical reason.
Here's the original article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/26/AR2005092601345.html
BTW, the reporter/patient still had to get local injections b/c versed, fentanyl, and propofol are not anesthetics - sheesh, I can't believe the head anesthesiologist of a hospital would agree to do GA's for vasectomies, it's just way beyond the boundaries of SOC.
Let's try that article URL again:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn
/content/article/2005/09/26
/AR2005092601345.html
The text won't wrap so I had to break it up - you may have to copy and paste it one line at a time.
My read of the original article does not lead me to think the person received general but just versed induced "conscious sedation". In any case, as one who had a vasectomy without any sedation (and the need for sedation was never even discussed), I have to express my amazement at the extent of chemical hand-holding that seems to be going on out there for minor medical procedures. What's next? Versed for a blood draw? A pelvic exam? Got a splinter? Ok, we can get that out, but first a little versed cocktail. You'll love it. who doesn't enjoy "a very wonderful head-spinning hypnotic sedative"?
But the real eye opener was the doctor's statement, "I have more comfort level using sedation." This confirms what a lot of us have been arguing: This stuff is being used for reasons other than patient needs. Patients are being exposed to risk and side effects for the benefit of the doctor.
John
John:
Good input, I too am aware of unsedated vasectomies done quickly under local. Labrecque is right.
My two hand surgeries make a vasectomy look like a picnic and I chose to remain awake. They used a Bier block and fentanyl both times and it was fine. There was no sedation and I was happy to not have to shake off heavier drugs.
I went in for an abdominal supra-cervical hysterectomy but had already convinced my doctors and the anesthesiologist to give me a spinal rather than general anesthesia. I did get .5 of Valium when I walked into the hospital but had to wait several hours for the OR to open. When I got wheeled in, the anesthesiologist offered "a little Versed to take the edge off" prior to the spinal cath being placed. I said yes. The last thing I remember is moving to the gurney ... then awaking in recovery, completely confused. My doc told me I was awake and very amusing during the first hour of the surgery and then asleep.
Does that bother me? Hell yes.
If I didn't have a good relationship with my surgeon, I would be terribly worried about what had transpired while I was chatty and amusing but completely out of it. I'm beyond ticked the anesthesiologist glossed over the drug like it was an IV version of Valium.
Thanks for this site - I wish I found it before my surgery.
Dear Tim,
You asked me how I got around the "no drugs" issue for the colonoscopy. Well being a bold, brassy New Yorker, I'm sure helped my case, LOL. I TOLD the Dr. my wishes and he did try to talk me out of doing the C-word w/o drugs. I just told him that I refuse to be sedated, and that I had two horrible experiences with Versed that left me with permanant throat damage and also severe and sometimes uncontrollable anxiety attacks. I also put on my medical history that I was allergic to Versed.I'm sure that helped too.
When I was checking out from the consultation, the Dr again said to me "I wish you'd reconsider your decision, the procedure can be quite painful." My answer to him was "I've made my decision, I'm sticking with it, and believe me I'll be FINE."
We had compromised and agreed to a small amount of Demerol, but I really wasn't OK with that either.
When I was hooked up to the IV for the procedure, (and I wrote on EVERY page of the consent form at the hospital that I was allergic to Versed and that "NO sedation, analgesics only if absolutely necessary."
When they wheeled me into the room, I reminded the Dr. and both of the nurses of my wishes. One nurse didn't say much, but the other one held my hand and said "Oh honey, you can't do this awake, it's too painful." I told her that if I can have all my dental work w/o novocaine or gas and two nine plus pound babies with no drugs, this I'm sure is nothing I can't deal with. I also added that my pain tolerance level is on par with Superman and laughed. She was shocked and still tried to convince me. I told her, that I'm adamant and sticking with my decision. The Dr said he REALLY wanted me to use some Demerol, so I caved in and agreed to a very small amount, I belive it was like 25mgs. I know it wasn't much because I never felt any changes in my body, and I've had demerol a few times before and felt like I was flying high.
Tim just be adamant about your decision. On a scale of 1-10 for pain I would rate this a 1. I was only VERY mildly uncomfortable when he reached the transverse colon, (it was like very mild stomach cramps,) it only lasted a few seconds. I took deep breaths and when he got through, everything was smooth sailing. I saw my small intestine and cecum. The whole procedure was very interesting. Since I got some bad news, I will have to go back for another C-word next year, and I told the Dr that next time it's no drugs, and he said he does ONE other person in his office with no drugs, a man. He said no woman in his 24 years of practice had ever done this w/o being sedated. So I told him....well now you have one woman that can do it!!
email me if you have any further questions. I don't mind answering anything you'd like to know.
Serialmom12@yahoo.com
http://www.fda.gov/cder/comment.htm
This is the FDA's website. Please go on there and fill out their online form complaining about the horrors of Versed. If enough of us do it, maybe the FDA will take it off the market.
Lois J
This site is exhaustive but I read the whole thing and it took me several hours. I posted a comment about half a year ago and it has grown tremendously since then. In reading the comments, it occurred to me that there is a common thread. Either Versed bothers you or it doesn't. Perhaps it's a personality trait or perhaps it's an adverse chemical reaction, or maybe both. If it doesn't bother you, then there is no way of truly comprehending it. Being in a deep, dark pit of depression can only be understood by someone who's been there. I think the real problem here is that there is no warning or acknowledgment by the FDA, drug manufacturers or doctors that a long term adverse psychological effect could be caused by the use of Versed. Rage, depression, anger, fear, paranoia, anxiety, obsession and a profound dread of the drug being used on us again, are a common thread of complaints and concerns about this drug. Some people, including myself, will forgo medical treatment for fear of Versed being used on them. Personally, I have no intention of ever having another colonoscopy done because I can't stand the "creepy" feeling that the Versed has on me and I don't trust that the medical people who would be involved in it would not use it on me. I wrote No Versed on the back of my driver's license because I'm afraid of an EMT using Versed on me. I have written letters to the hosp. and anesthesia dept. for using Versed on me without my informed consent before surgery. I always tell doctor's offices that I am allergic to Versed so that it gets into the medical computer system. I have filed a complaint with the FDA.
I didn't know or meet anyone who administered Versed to me more that a half hour before the procedure and the anesthesiologist never saw me or talked to me again after the surgery. How are they supposed to know about a long term negative effect from the drug. They only see us at the time of administration. If we don't become violent or go into respiratory arrest, all is well as far as they are concerned.
I was surprised to see that several anesthesiologists have included comments on this site. I would have thought that they would be interested and fascinated to hear about the adversed effect of this drug. Instead, they seem to spend more time defending it.
I am obviously obsessed with information about the negative psychological effects of Versed because it has effected me that way. For about a year I felt crazy and alone about my obsession with Versed until I started to find sites where other people had had similar experiences. One woman had it 17 years ago, has been taking anti-depressants and still hasn't felt like she will ever be the same.
It does something negative to some of our brains. We wouldn't be so obsessed and vehement about it if it didn't.
This drug has only been around since 1986. I had a horrible bicycle accident when I was 13, in 1974, before Versed was around. I had to get about 500 to 700 stitches and had to have general anesthesia to have my jaw wired, all without the "wonderful" drug Versed. I remember everything and I would like to say that if I had to do it all again and had the choice of having Versed or not, I would choose not to have Versed. I didn't have any pain because they kept me full of morphine. All of this anxiety that these doctors keep saying that they're concerned about doesn't make any sense at all to me.
I have more post anxiety after having Versed than I ever had prior to any medical procedure done. And my anxiety is that I will be given Versed again.
Please, any anesthesiologist who reads this, help people like us. We might be a minority but our long term psychological problems with Versed are real. This exhaustive site should prove that.
Any comments that you could send me directly would be appreciated. My e-mail is: thejamesthree@yahoo.com
Hello. Wow! Is your site on the money! I had umbilical hernia surgery on New Years eve (2007). I was not told anything about the effects of Versed. I was told the classic, "Something to make you relax". I retrieved the PACU nurses notes, and everything recorded looked absolutely wonderful. Strange that the notes did not include anything about the smelling salts they made me inhale, the waste can that was pushed in front of me in case I vomited, or the fact that I walked into the surgical center for a "short" procedure, but left in a wheelchair. I went home but could not sleep because of "voices" calling my name, and "seeing" people walking in the hallway that adjoins my bedroom. Of course my wife (who sat with me) assured me that there was no one else in the house at the time! I have contacted the surgical center and requested a "follow-up" with the anesthesiologist, but as of yet have not heard from her. Any suggestions?
My husband was given Versed Jan 4,2008 for a colonoscopy, and has been in and out of the hospital 3 times since. so far nobody can say it is due to the versed, of course? however, he was healthy before the colonoscopy. Now, he has shortness of breath, dizziness, a foggy head, having trouble with memory, such as balancing a check book, etc.
My question is, are these symptoms reversible, most of your posts are from years ago, ??? did anybody recover????
so far we are almost 2 months after the colonoscopy, and all tests are normal, he has nothing wrong, yet has all these symptoms.
Hello there, sorry to hear about your experience! My Versed problem began 2 years ago and while I am better, I have to tell people that my short term recall isn't the best. I compensate by writing lists, writing down directions, etc. which previously I had no problem storing in my short term memory. I have heard about the dizziness many times in re Versed. If you search the net you can find evidence, but be warned, the medical professionals will usually not admit that it is caused by Versed. Versed is also an ototoxic medication, known to cause ringing in the ear and hearing problems. It can be very frustrating. Is your husband having shortness of breath because of panic attacks? I haven't heard of that symptom, but Versed has been known in the past to cause complete cessation of breathing, as in knocking out all necessary involuntary muscles, lungs, heart. People have been KILLED with Versed. So I am thinking that it is entirely possible for Versed to do this. As to whether he will be the same as he was before, I don't think so, but that is only my opinion and I am certainly NOT a medical person. I can only attest to what I have experienced after receiving this poison. The memory thing is one of the most common side effects of Versed. Unfortunately most colonoscopies are performed on older persons and the excuse is "age related mental infirmity." Good luck with this.
I want to fight back, I want to create a group of people who want to fight back with me. I want to do whatvever it takes, however long it takes. I have several good ideas and if you are interested in fighting back with me email me. And yes I am a Versed victim. And all I am trying to do is to make sure it does not happen to anyone else. So please take this invitation as seriously as I do, and join me because although one voice might not be heard a group of voices can cause someone to take a second look.
Whitney -
If people check this site, they will want to join the ranks with you and FIGHT BACK! I'm here with you. Let's see how many others respond, so we can start figuring out a plan of action. :)
This post was previously removed by the blog administrator.
While I agree with most of you that full disclosure from your anesthesiologist is a necessity, I am disturbed by the number of you who are opposed to any use of this substance, and fear it may stem from a misunderstanding of its purpose.
It is true that midazolam does have an amnestic effect in most patients, but this drug is not administered solely to "make you forget the horrors of surgery".
The connection between doctors and date-rapists you guys are trying to make is simply not there.
Versed has many valid applications (anticonvulsive, muscle relaxant, synergistic effects with pain relievers) in anesthesia for a wide variety of cases, surgical and non-surgical.
I came to this blog hoping to find an informative overview, and ended up flabbergasted at its population of paranoid nutballs.
I am sympathetic to those who have had bad experiences, but doctors are there to help you, not mess with your mind.
Icculus:
In the interest of reducing clutter I am in the habit of deleting posts that do not add anything to this blog - and I will certainly delete any flame wars, etc.
Since you are persisting with your post, you must want a response, so here's mine:
You are so off base it is incredible we live on the same planet.
Obviously you have not read all the concerns and complaints here - and obviously, like so many medical folks, you don't give a damn either.
Here we go AGAIN, for all you pro-Versed people who are denser than Osmium:
A nice synopsis of my concerns was posted by Mlgsings (Tue Sep 18, 06:51:00 PM).
And a correction to your post:
Doctors are SUPPOSED to help you - but some do not.
Arrogance, stupidity, incompetence, etc. all cross any barrier you care to name - gender, age, race, college of choice etc.
Having "MD" after your name is no guarantee that you are a decent person - or professional for that matter.
Doctor, we are not all as stupid as you would like to believe... Because we do not have a Doctors' degree doesn't mean that we are too inept and incompetant to decide for ourselves whether we want an amnesia drug. If it was for all those things that you mention I would not have needed it. I did not in fact need it, it was for the entertainment of the staff, of which I have ample proof, and to force me into compliance with procedures which I had declined. If Versed is so fabulous, then you would be able to disclose fully what the intended purpose of the drug is, wouldn't you? Instead you sneak it into unsuspecting patients with the rationale that you are so far above us mere mortals that we should allow you any indignity at all without demur. Your attitude in calling us "paranoid nutballs" is more proof of the disdain and complete disregard for your patient isn't it? WHAT A WONDERFUL DOCTOR! So kind and helpful... You sir are a megalomaniac with delusions of grandure. Your utter arrogance astonishes me, it really does. Your persistance in posting your childish rant is also indicative of a deep seated psychopathological condition. Heal thyself Doctor! Get yourself into counseling for your God complex! For your information, DOCTOR, Versed does have negative side effects, sometimes PROLONGED negative side effects. Just because you are in denial doesn't make it any different. God save us all from DOCTORS like you. You are a chilling reminder of what we patients face in medical personnel these days.
I was a little too hostile in my last post so now that I have calmed down from the "paranoid nutball" phrase, let me say; Most of us on this forum have been harmed by Versed. Either we allowed its use and it was a HUGE surprise to find out it is a zombie drug OR we were given this drug without our consent and, again, a huge surprise to find out later what had happened. It's very hard to trust ANYBODY after being injected with Versed. The problem is compounded by medical attitudes as represented by "paranoid nutballs" type statements. The second part of the problem is the severe mental problems associated with Versed use, which is either denied deliberately because you medical people like it as a patient control drug, or you guys aren't listening to and/or aren't the slightest bit concerned when your patients' personalities dissolve in the aftermath. It's a lot easier to blame the patient, other drugs, underlying personality disorders revealed by Versed, ad nauseum, than to admit that Versed can and does cause bad problems in a lot of patients. It's weird that Doctors would take it personally that we don't like this drug, and continue touting it! If you are defensive about administering Versed by stealth, all you have to do is stop doing that. I told my stepfather the DOCTOR about this and he was very alarmed as he has noted odd symptoms in his geriatric patients after surgery. He has put it all together with Versed. He is suggesting that they not have Versed unless they really want amnesia. He describes what may happen before and after so they won't be afraid if the drugs side effects kick in. That is humane and what all of us should be able to expect from the people we trust with our very lives! Not "paranoid nutballs" slurs!
I was given versed prior to the placement of a stent in my heart. All I was told is that it would relax me. I was not told what the medication was. As soon as the versed was put into the IV I told the people there that my hand burned. As it went up my arm, it was horrible burning feeling. By the time it had made its way past my elbow I started to itch horribly. I had one person holding my right leg straight because I had a cather in my femoral artery. It took a total of six people to hold me down until they could get a doctors order to give me two doses of benadryl to counter act the versed. I had bruises on my body from the people holding me down so that I would not break the cather in my artery. Usualy people are released in about six or eight hours after the stent implant. I was literally tied to the hospital bed for 24 hours. When I went to the cardiac doctor the following week he had no idea as what was given to me. I had been transfered to a hospital in a larger city where he didn't practice. I would think that the medications that were administered to any patient would be on their medical records that would then in turn be transferred back to the particular doctor. I am very distrusting of doctors now to the point that I don't go to them anymore. Debbie
I am sick of versed!! I had an endscope done two weeks ago, I feel the depression, anxity and parinoya coming back. I have to have a scope done every three months
Ken Roach
ken,
maybe topical cetacaine and propofol would be better than versed for upper endoscopy. or just topical.
try upper endoscopy or colonoscopy with no sedation and see what you prefer. i have given versed as part of thousands of anesthetics and have never had one complaint from any of my patients.
-david
Dr. David, it was nearly impossible to get hold of anybody who had anything to do with my anesthesia after the fact. If you are unavailable, it's hard for you to know if the anesthesia was any good. It isn't your fault that you are so insulated, it's part of the game of medicine from what I can tell. You really don't know what is going on with your anesthesia patients down the road. Why should you? You are not the primary caregiver! Nobody will admit that ANY of the symptoms we mention could be VERSED. Your minions will simply disregard any complaints, and you will NEVER HEAR ABOUT IT! I do hope that Ken will try your technique, but please don't keep telling us that NOBODY HAS EVER COMPLAINED ABOUT VERSED!
Yea right Dr. David, I have CP there is no way I could do that with out some type of sedation. I don't think that would work
kr
David
and one more thing how many of your patents were repeat customers out of those thousand patients? I have the procedure done every 4 - 6 weeks. And by talking to quite a few people that have had multiple surgeries close together they do have problems with VERSED. One gentleman I have known for 30 years now had a problem with VERSED and he is the most down to earth person I have ever known. I thought when Dr's go to college they were suppose to think outside the box? I am not trying to critize but don't go through life with blinders on your a doctor not a race horse...
I am a 17 year old male, and about three weeks ago I had two surgeries back-to-back. the first was a wisdom-tooth removal surgery in which I was under concious sedation using versed. two days later my lung collapsed and i had to have surgery, in which i was administered versed and put under general anasthesia. i am normally quite intellectually active, even beyond school, and i have noticed a marked decrease in my abilities to remember and process information. although i had three surgeries on my lung one year ago, i did not notice the deficits that i do this time. i have spoken with several people with similar experiences and have heard that i might have to wait three to six months until i am back to normal functioning, and that perhaps i still have residual versed in my system (contrary to most medical textbooks, versed can stay in the body for up to a year) i have heard various explinations for my condition including postoperative cognitive disorder due to lack of O2. In any case, it is frightening to be in this situation, especially since i am trying to learn chinese for a year in taiwan. everyday tasks are difficult for me to perform, and i find myself unable to think creatively and synthesize information. please, could someone, somewhere, give me some affirmation or advice regarding my frightening predicament.
I am a 17 year old male, and about three weeks ago I had two surgeries back-to-back. the first was a wisdom-tooth removal surgery in which I was under concious sedation using versed. two days later my lung collapsed and i had to have surgery, in which i was administered versed and put under general anasthesia. i am normally quite intellectually active, even beyond school, and i have noticed a marked decrease in my abilities to remember and process information. although i had three surgeries on my lung one year ago, i did not notice the deficits that i do this time. i have spoken with several people with similar experiences and have heard that i might have to wait three to six months until i am back to normal functioning, and that perhaps i still have residual versed in my system (contrary to most medical textbooks, versed can stay in the body for up to a year) i have heard various explinations for my condition including postoperative cognitive disorder due to lack of O2. In any case, it is frightening to be in this situation, especially since i am trying to learn chinese for a year in taiwan. everyday tasks are difficult for me to perform, and i find myself unable to think creatively and synthesize information. please, could someone, somewhere, give me some affirmation or advice regarding my frightening predicament.
You are not alone. However, it may take years for your intellect to return. Refuse this poison in the future. I have found that fish oil has helped me through the mental degredation that VERSED produced in me. If it's any cold comfort, VERSED seems to affect bright minds the worst. As I have previously stated, most of the people with an adverse reaction to VERSED were on the upper end of the bell curve. Usually Doctors have the excuse that it's age related problems, rather than the drug itself. Good luck with them pulling that little excuse on YOU!!!
Using VERSED to prevent a patient from stopping a procedure before it's finished or from resisting a course of treatment deemed appropriate by "medical professionals," should come under the heading of FALSE IMPRISONMENT and should be punishable by law! Let's get mandatory recordings of surgical procedures done to document patient abuse under VERSED!
I'm the 17-year old male, and i found something that might give us some relief. --http://www.bcnc.org.uk/flumazenil.html--
David,
Obviously you have not read all the posts here and elsewhere as more than a few have related accounts of being told to shut up, were forcibly held down and the procedure continued against their will all while in excruciating pain and agony. And these are just the ones who remember! Who knows what happened to those who don't remember! I, for one, do not think it is acceptable medical care to subject patients to this kind of treatment as long as they don't remember! Just what do you think the patient was thinking as they were in agony those loooong tortuous minutes? It's OK because I won't remember later? I don't think so.
in my practice and 7 + years of experience as a physician i have never seen any medical/surgical procedure forced on any patient ever. informed written surgical & anethesia consent is obtained for
every surgical procedure i have provided anesthesia for. i studied medicine and recieved my M.D. at the technion-isreal istitute of technology in haifa and 2 two months of anesthesiology electives at harvard. i did one year on internal medicine internship and 3 years of clinical anethesia at the college of physicians and surgeons. during my residency i participated in my complex, life saving, surgical procedures including liver transplant, heart/lung/kidney transplants. complex neurological surgeries, pediatric cardiac surgery, and many thousands of difficult, risky, procedures. i did an extra year of obstetric anesthesia fellowship for little pay to gain expertise/experience with high risk labor & delivery including severe preeclampsia, pulmonary hypertension, HIV + deliveries, and extreme prematurity. i work with a group of kind, dedicated physicians who care for patients. we don't hold anyone down or force medical care on anyone.
Hi David,
A lot (maybe most?) of the Versed being administered is being done by nurses in office based situations. How do you feel about people with this level of training administering Versed?
Also, are you aware of questions raised by the medical community itself about adequate pain relieve not being provided to patients, but disregarded, because "the patient won't remember it"?
John
Hey 17 year old! I went to that web-site you put up, and e-mailed them about whether they can do this protocol in the U.S. I am terrified of Doctors and any drugs they use (after my Versed experience) but I am willing to try the Flumazil experimental treatment! I am desperate to return to my former self after this Versed debacle! Thanks for the post...
The Flumazil treatment is only temporary. The web operators at www.bcnc.org.uk/flumazenil.html were very gracious about the VERSED problem and quite interested! Refreshing.
Last week I was given Versed just prior to a parathryoidectomy; Light anesthesia was also used for the 21 min.procedure. My experience was totally positive. I have PTSD, and the VERSED calmed me down. I remember transfering to the OR table and talking with the staff; this was well after I was given the VERSED. I awoke immeidately after the procedure feeling absolutely fine. I think for many people this is a safe and effective drug that removes the anxiety prior to surgery. I had three operations 3o years ago, and believe me I was anxious--no terrified--when I was wheeled into the OR each time. I awoke with anxiety, too. This did not happen with Versed.
My doctor performed a parathryoidectomy live on the internet and I viewed the film prior to the my surgery. The patient had been given versed and LMA. Clearly she was asleep and in absolutely no pain. After seeing this, I felt comfortable with the procedure. Go to www.parathryoid.com to view this surgery..and read what many people's experience was. This doctor operates on many medical people, doctors and nurses, and they have no problem with the versed or LMA.
THere always will be people who have idiosyncratic reactions to any drug. If you've had a bad reaction to Versed, be sure to tell you doctor.
Glad Versed worked for you! I had the opposite reaction. The unnatural obedience was horrifying (not "relaxing" in the slightest bit) and I woke up already in a rage! My nurse was cowering in the corner, my husband was standing near the partition ALARMED and frightened at what he was seeing and hearing from his usually kind and controlled wife. People were running down the halls towards my cubicle and were very upset. They kept admonishing me to think of the other patients! (yeah right) I was flashing in and out of consciousness, all the while yelling about never setting foot in a hospital, screaming about "date rape drugs" threatening to visit my veterinarian for my next surgery. I remember deliberately NOT swearing when I was lucid, but I imagine that I sounded like a sailer (no offense) when my memory and conscious thought flashed off and my sub-conscious took over. This Versed is very dangerous. There are other drugs that can be used and I know this because I'VE HAD THEM!!!!!!! I was fine when I went in for the surgery and this is how I woke up. It says so in my chart, I'm not making this up! Since nobody will admit this drug causes problems, I would think that patients should err on the side of caution when allowing the use of Versed.
Jackie...I understand your concern about Versed. I was concerned too. I'm really phobic, I've had bad medical experiences in the past, and I'm an RN. So I investigated. This drug does work for a lot of people. Two of my best friends are psychiatrists, and they've had the drug. The doctor who did my recent surgery is one of the best in the world, and many physicians seek him out to do their surgeries. They use versed most of the time on their patients, including the doctors and nurses who go there for surgery. I've spoken with many people who have had versed with no ill effects, and as I said, I had terrible anxiety before and after surgery 30 years ago when they used the old pre op meds, and I did much better with the Versed.
I think it's fine to caution people, and you are right that people should be informed when they consent to the use of this drug. But be aware that it is safe and effective for most people, and that many bright intelligent people consent to its use. I'm afraid that some of the opinions on this blog will scare people who already have had the drug. I don't know of anyone who has had long term ill effects from it, and I didn't either. I believe that it does happen, but I doubt that it's common. It sounds to me that some of the people who had bad experiences actually had idiosyncratic reactions to Versed, and this can happen with any drug, not just Versed. The other drugs that you say are better, could cause a bad reaction in someone else.
Take care, I hope this never happens to you again.
This Versed experience has been so devastating and so long lasting, that I would NEVER suggest to anybody that they risk this. Most of the people on this site would probably not want to chance it again either. This has been the WORST thing that has ever happened to me, and I've had plenty of harrowing experiences. I feel unsafe, vulnerable, violated and extremely anxious about this drug being used on me again. Medical people who continue to extoll the virtues of Versed to people like me are part of what makes me so nervous about getting this horrible drug in the future. This drug has severely curtailed my whole life! I am desperately fearful that I will get Versed again against my will and that I will not survive the mental problems a second time. I'm sure my CRNA would LOVE to inject me with this stuff again, knowing I will probably commit suicide rather than deal with the mental disturbance. This is no joke. It's not a little problem like you suggest. Nobody seems to know why a lot of us have this kind of reaction to Versed and therefore it should not be used. The surgeons I talked to would not take Versed. Quite different from your experience! Also I've NEVER heard of any other drug causing the extreme problems associated with Versed. I've had all the big guns and while I disliked some (Demerol) once they were discontinued I was fine. Versed is different. It's bad and it stays bad FOREVER as far as I can see. I truly believe Versed caused some kind of brain damage as others have claimed who have had brain function tests after bad trips on Versed. I guess as long as Versed doesn't ruin EVERYBODY'S life, its OK to ruin just SOME people's life. Too bad for me, right?
Just have them put on your chart that you are allergic to Versed; It belongs to a family of drugs called Benzpdiazapines (these include valium and xanax), so you may want to say you are allergic to Versed and all Benzodiazapines. This way, you won't have to live in fear that you'll be given this drug again.
This is the first time I have posted here, but I have been reading all your comments (some of which have brought me to tears), and now, six weeks after being given Versed, I am ready to share my story.
I am a relatively healthy woman who recently had a routine colonoscopy for screening purposes. I had spoken with the doctor over the phone before the surgery, and told him I wanted to be awake & alert for the procedure, unless I was too uncomfortable.He told me that I'd be able to "watch the screen." I was NEVER told that I'd be given drugs that might not make that possible. (I thought I would just be given something to relax, and take the edge off the pain..STUPID ME !) Subsequently, when I awoke after the procedure,remembering nothing, the very first thing out of my mouth was, "I was supposed to be awake!" Then I remember feeling extremely dizzy & nauseous, and the nurses snapping at me that I "should have said something" about my intolerance to pain medication. (but that's another story)
I felt anger (bordering on rage), and was deeply depressed. When the nurse called the next day to see how I was, I gave her such an earful ("I'll never trust another doctor again! I'll never take any medicine ever again!"...etc.), she got an attitude, and said she'd have the doctor call me. He heard more of the same. But here's the thing...I had no idea yet that I had been given Versed ! I found that out AFTER I read my procedure report about the drugs I had been given (Versed&Fentanyl), and then doing my own online research about Versed. While I found the Versed-amnesia extremely disturbing (especially since I hadn't been told about it), I believe, like poster Jackie, that the drug does indeed cause chemical imbalances in some people, no matter what the medical profession says.
I've posted on here about my horrible experience with Versed 17 years ago. It left me with PTSD and about 20 years of precious memories that have been lost for ever. What I wanted to mention is what is the BIG deal about remembering a surgery? Come on, we're adults here...why do we need to be drugged into oblivion for a procedure? Makes no sense!! Who cares if you hear the dr talking, or the machines beeping or instruments being used? I'm not a wuss, stuff like this doesn't bother me. I'd much rather deal with it than have amnesia. What the hell is wrong with the medical profession? Why don't they ASK people what they'd prefer and not just drug them into compliant zombies that they don't have to bother with?
Dear anonymous, a word of caution about medical double speak. "Relaxed" means amnestic, "cooperative patient" means mindless zombie. "Pt. tolerated procedure well" means they didn't kill you. You probably APPEARED to be awake and you probably WERE watching the screen. You were probably chattering away. This counts as awake and alert in medical parlance even though you have complete amnesia of the events, due to the Versed disrupting your brain. I am glad you found us here. Tim, Mary and Kirt sure saved a bunch of us from feeling alone and crazy!
MRLN.... After reading your post on 6/5 it seams to me that your Versed experience that you think was so wonderful was probably limited to only 1 or 2mg of Versed to take the edge off before you were given another drug for your anesthesia. You describe "waking up" even though when Versed is used for sedation you never really are put to sleep and recovery involves your ability to process memories again. It sounds like you really didn't have a full Versed experience.
In my case I was told I would taking a 20 minute nap and in a hour I could go home. What really happened was that I was wheeled into the procedure room and without any warning they started giving me the drugs. Except for a couple of still snapshot images, the next thing I fully realized was I was sitting in a chair at home. According to the medical records, in a total of 12 minutes I was hammered with 9mg of Versed and 150mg of demoral and 62 minutes after the procedure was done, ready or not, I was put out the door. From the time I was given the drugs I never saw anyone or talked to anyone until I recovered at home. Two days and nights of total confusion as to where I was at and what had happened caused me to have a total breakdown and landed me in the hospital ER. In my mind I was still waiting for the procedure to start. This was a Sunday morning and I had no way to contact the Dr. because the discharge paper that was handed to my wife on the way out the door only had his office number written on it. The next morning, when I called his office I asked the receptionist two times to please tell tell him I was having problem, I never heard from that Dr again. My family Dr. finally got me connected with a good therapist and it took over a year to stop the daily panic attacks (I never had a panic attack in my life before the Versed was given to me) and another year before I was able to put the fear and anxiety in a place where I have control of it.
I read over and over posts by people with both good and bad experiences with Versed, but almost never are they told truthfully about the amnesia caused by Versed (20 minute nap!). I know that after having been put in the danger I was subjected to after having been lied to about the drug and then being thrown out the door before I was allowed to recover, I will never for any reason allow the drug Versed be put into me again. If any medical person ever threatens my safety by trying to use that drug on me for any reason they will also be threatening their own health and safety.
I was supposed to have a TEE - Transesophageal echocardiogram - in late 2005, at which time I was given Versed and Demorol with no explanation whatsoever.
I stopped breathing under the procedure - although the cardiologist changed the record to read 'breathing slowly,' crossing out the words that stated 'stopped breathing'. I have the charts as well to disprove that change. No anesthesiologist was present even though I had been given a diagnosis of Pulmonary Hypertension.
In the records I have it states they had to use an ambu bag on me, which I presume they only use if you stop breathing, correct me if I am wrong...
I should have reported all this, but I didn't.
Last week, I went for an appointment that I expect to be with a doctor to talk about having a colonoscopy. I did not actually see a doctor, only a nurse. She seemed to think nothing of me having stopped breathing previously, and stated that they did not use either Versed or Demorol, but something called Propofol, which does not have that good a write-up either.
I asked the nurse who would deal with the administering of anesthesia, to which she replied that the doctor handled both the colonoscopy and the anesthesia. I am not at all happy about this and am going to write a letter to them and tell them why I will not be coming for this procedure.
I live in a small town, so it is difficult to find a doctor, but I am just amazed at the laxness of treatment - even though I was revived from my Versed experience, and am here today to write about it.
Em
And just to add to my post, I had a left and right heart catheterization with just novocaine and was quite fine with it.
Em
My husband is still battling with Dr's on his experience with versed, they said he had a brain trauma that was triggered by the versed, was his last diagnosis.
He is still having motion problems, since January. He was a healthy man when he went in to have this colonoscopy.
I am angry and so is he..
my email is browneyedgirl03@satx.rr.com .....
I was given versed during my first c-section directly after my son was removed from my body "im going to give you something to calm you down" she said, although I didn't need to be calmed down, I was witnessing the birth of my first child I was just crying like any mother would, within seconds I was out and remember nothing for the next 45 min. My son almost died that night and had to be rushed to a larger hospital because my hospital was not able to handle such emergencies. I later found out from my doctor of my second child that the only reason a woman would be given versed during a c-section is if the doctor/nurse did something they did not want me to see. I also found out later the only way my newborn could have gotten a tear in his lung [which is what almost killed him] is by being bagged to hard after he was removed from me.
These doctors and nurses screwed up and used versed to keep me calm and make me forget so I wouldn't sue their asses. They are just lucky I didn't realize what they had done to me and my son earlier. Its been to many years for me to do anything, but to use something like this to avoid conflict with a patient is absurd!
I am a medical professional. I have received Versed for procedures in the past. If you don't want a medication, simply tell the staff!! You make us sound like conspiratorial freaks! Our interest is not the speed of getting procedures done. It is the comfort and safety of the patient! If you want to remember painful IV sticks, catheter insertions or epidural steroid injections, you are a very small subset of patients. Talk to your anesthetist. Tell them you want to be awake. Don't sign your consent if you don't understand!! Do you think we like unhappy patients? God no!!! Also...if you think the hospital staff is abusive after you are anesthetized you are completely wrong. We do what we do FOR the patients. By the way...I am having a procedure today and I will happily take 2 mg of Versed please!
It is all well and good to say that one should 'simply tell the staff'. If you don't know what you are getting in the first place, how can you tell them not to give it to you. And I received more than 2mg.
Some procedures just do not require the administration of Versed or any other drug to make you 'forget', including a heart cath. What is wrong with remembering. I was quite happy with novacaine.
CM
'Chris said: I am a medical professional. I have received Versed for procedures in the past. If you don't want a medication, simply tell the staff!! You make us sound like conspiratorial freaks! Our interest is not the speed of getting procedures done. It is the comfort and safety of the patient! If you want to remember painful IV sticks, catheter insertions or epidural steroid injections, you are a very small subset of patients. Talk to your anesthetist. Tell them you want to be awake. Don't sign your consent if you don't understand!! Do you think we like unhappy patients? God no!!! Also...if you think the hospital staff is abusive after you are anesthetized you are completely wrong. We do what we do FOR the patients. By the way...I am having a procedure today and I will happily take 2 mg of Versed please!
Mon Jul 07, 10:01:00 AM EDT'
Chris, you said, "Talk to your anesthetist. Tell them you want to be awake." That's what I did, but I was given Versed with no explanation of what it was or what it would do to me ! I had never even heard of an "amnesia" drug, or I would NEVER have agreed to it's use. Yes, I DO feel it was "conspiratorial" to use it without telling me about it - especially since I had specifically requested to be awake. Do you have any idea how that single action by a single doctor has permanently affected me ?? I should have been told. I have gone from having complete trust & respect for medical professionals, to having almost none. All we're saying at this Blog, is that many people (more than the medical profession would like to believe) have been permanently severly affected by it's use. To all those who love the drug, I am happy for you, but it's not for me. I feel like I'll need a lawyer to review my consent form before I agree to any medical procedure again.
By the way, I am not the same anonymous poster as the one from yesterday......this is only my second time posting here, but my negative feelings about Versed are every bit as intense as most of the posters. I will never feel differntly. Chris, if you really want to uphold the "do no harm" vow, simply INFORM your patients about the truth of Versed, because to SOME of us, you are doing incredible permanent mental harm
Versed is never a required frog for anything. Before you sign the consent, write "no versed or other amnesic drugs" and make the MD sign it and print and date it BEFORE you sign. Having the CRNA sign is worthless; you need the MD to sign, he's running the circus, not one of the clown like the CRNA. Don't tell them in advance if it's a procedure like colonoscopy, make them sign at the last minute before the IV goes in...they will comply rather than lose their precious endoscopy time slot....Done it several times, and most docs that I know NEVER consent to versed, just fentanyl. and with fentanyl, it doesn't hurt..versed is a patient control drug, pure and simple...it produces an amnesic, imobile piece of meat who can't protest or scream, but certianly can suffer.....
I am 21 years old and was diagnosed with cancer 4 months ago. I had to undergo a number of surgical procedures to begin treatment. Thankfully (and I truly mean thankfully) my husband had come across this site and a couple others a few weeks before (he is always on the internet researching interesting topics) and we had a discussion about the dangers of this drug, that doctors only use it for convenience, and how given the situation we would refuse it.
The first surgery I needed was a biopsy. The anesthesiologist came and spoke with us the night before. I am the type of person that wants to know in detail about everything that goes into my body and I have a knowledge of anesthesia because I am in school to be a vet tech. So I told him to list everything I would be given. He begins by saying, 'well one drug will do this and another will do that...' to which I replied no, I want the names, I already know what they all do. He chuckled and reluctantly started naming what they would be using. Versed was not mentioned. I asked if that was all and he could tell I was worried about something so he finally asked what it was. My husband spoke up and asked if they would be giving me Versed. He said yes, they generally do. I told him that I would not take that, another sedative was fine but not Versed. He said he would consult with the others but they did not like to use other sedatives. I find this very odd because they praise Versed for it's ability to relax you and say they want you as comfortable as possible, yet they won't use any of the numerous other drugs that work just as well (but do not cause amnesia). In veterinary medicine we almost always use a sedative, it is standard practice to truly make the animal as comfortable as possible. If the animal is not fully anesthetized we stand there and restrain them, stroking them and telling them it is ok. We are prepared for our patients to give us trouble and we deal with it ethically because it is our job to do so. Surgeons would rather just give you a drug that enables them to do whatever they wish because you won't remember anyway.
Anyway, I get to the operating room and have another doctor speak with me again about what they would be using. I ask if it was written on my chart that I did not want Versed - no. I tell him I do not and to please write it down. He questions me about this a couple times and I explain to him why I don't want it, using information from this site. I ask if there is something else they can give to relax me and he replies, 'well I would really like to give you some Midazolam,' obviously trying to trick me because he did not know of my knowledge of anesthetic drugs. Another no. Then right before I am wheeled in the room an unknown doctor strolls over, does not introduce himself and pulls a small brown bottle from his coat and proceeds to put it on my IV. I ask what it is and he tells me it's a sedative. I again have to repeat, I DO NOT WANT VERSED. He says 'oh, I better put that away then,' and takes it off my line. I was absolutely mortified that they would go to such lengths just to give me the drug. I was so relieved to see my doctor that was doing the biopsy and they finally put me under with absolutely no problems. The only time I remember struggling was when I first woke up because they did not extubate me quickly enough.
The next surgery I had to have was a port placement for administration of chemotherapy. This involved putting tubes into my jugular vein accessible from my chest, which is apparently routinely done with the use of Versed and Fentanyl. This time I was not consulted until it was time for the procedure. I figured it was on record by now that I would not take Versed, but no. This surgeon refused to perform the procedure without it, which meant I would have to wait another couple days for general surgery and at this point I really wanted out of the hospital. After a reassuring discussion with the surgeon I stupidly decided to bite the bullet and accept the drug. This is the biggest mistake I have ever made in my life. All was fine until he made the first incision. I awoke from my daze and started screaming, telling them where it hurt. The amnesic effects of the Versed did not work on me. I remember every part of the extremely painful procedure. I remember him ignoring my screams, I remember him using my face for leverage making it to where I could not breathe. I remember him asking what his hand was on and replying, 'that is my face, get off of it!' numerous times. I remember my heart monitor going crazy due to my increased heart rate from the tremendous pain, and I remember the anesthesiologist giving me more of the Versed and Fentanyl 3 different times. When it was all over I told her I remembered everything and she quizzed me, asking the exact amount of drug she told the doctor she was using and a couple other questions that I answered correctly. She said to me in amazement that I need to inform my doctors in the future that I am very difficult to sedate (I guess the amount she had to use even of the Fentanyl was high). It was such a relief to finally make it to the recovery room, where I lay shaking for about 20 minutes. It was the most mortifying experience of my life and I will never again go against my better judgment and take any drug I am not entirely comfortable with, especially not Versed. The next two surgeries I had were at another hospital and I refused it with no problems. Instead to keep me relaxed before putting me under a nurse came and held my hand and talked to me while another put flavoring in the oxygen mask (it was a children's hospital).
I appreciate that there are sites such as this where people can share their experiences and get the information out there.
Two years ago, I underwent a number of conscious sedation procedures with the drug Versed for an illness I was battling at the time. During one of these procedures, the Versed was administered and shortly after, the administering physician asked me a some personal questions that were in no way relevant to my condition or the procedure he was about to perform. Of course, I didn't remember this when I woke up. Several weeks later, it hit me...memories of him asking me "Were you ever abused by your parents?" and "Does your family have a history of mental illness?" came rushing back to me. I have no idea what else transpired or what other questions he asked, but I felt very violated and taken advantaged of. I was only sixteen at the time and I thought it to be especially sneaky and unethical of this doctor to ask these questions to me only after my brain was chemically altered. I was so furious that I almost filed a complaint with the American Medical Association. Versed sometimes functions as a "truth serum" and I still cannot fathom why he would ask me such things, since my illness was PATHOLOGICAL, not mental/psychological. Barring that one experience, Versed has been a good drug for me but ever since then, I have requested that a trusted family member be present during any medical procedures, to keep the doctors and other medical personnel in check. To everyone who has had negative experiences with Versed, you can try requesting "Propofal" as an alternative in conscious sedation procedures. I woke up from it feeling very cognizant and clear headed, with no amnesia (contrary to its formulary nickname, "Milk of Amnesia" - due to a white, milky color and quality). The best part about Propofal is that it has a very short half life and will usually begin to wear off around 10 - 15 minutes after the administration. Good luck to everyone!
Doesn't Propofal cause amnesia also ?
I do not care if I am "out" for a procedure or surgery, or if I'm asleep; I just don't want amnesia.
(By the way, I only recently became aware of this drug. Most people pronounce it VerSED, but my doctor's office pronounced it VERsed. Is the accent on the first or second syllable?)
Thanks to everyone sharing their experiences here. It lets me know I'm not alone in how I feel about this drug.
I and most medical people pronounce it with the accent on the second syllable. VERsatile SEDative. Midazolam is pronounced with accent on the second syllable hence the street name "Dazzle." FYI recently I have heard that Versed is being used on prisoners to make them obedient and on deportees to keep them quiet on the airliners returning them to their country of origin! The possibilities are endless. Interrogation under Versed, as some posters here have had personal experience with, mental hospitals controlling aggressive patients, job interviews under Versed instead of a lie detector test, exuberant boy children in school being subjugated, jeez just think about how useful a mindless zombie and amnesia drug will be!
i like the lively debate. i give versed all the time and find its amnestic , seditive properties well tolerated and pleasant.
David, I would like to ask you a serious question. I hope I do not sound like I am attacking you personally. I believe you honestly think Versed is a wonderful patient-benefiting drug, but there are many people who have experienced adverse psychological after-effects of this drug (myself included).
If a patient was emotionally distraught after being given this drug without his/her knowledge, would you care ? Would you apologize, explain, or feel any empathy? I really want to know. My doctor just listened to my rantings after I found about the amnesia, and said nothing... I still cry sometimes just to think he didn't care how I felt.
tim,
i would care if a patient came to me with any complaints regarding anesthesia that i provided. i love being an anesthesiologist and caring for patients. i do mostly obstetric anesthesia at a small community hospital and about 20% general practice. i have never had a patient complain about versed but would certainly take it seriously, feel concern, empathy and likely consult with a psychiatist if needed. as you know, there are several different types of anesthesia - general , local, regional, sedation or monitored anesthetic care, etc. general anesthesia induces profound physiologic changes that include hypnosis, amnesia, analgesia, muscle rexation. intraoperative recall is rare and may be considered malpractice. i have never had a patient complain of recall but have heard of cases of recall and this is not good.
I did not express myself well enough...Many posters here are much more articulate than me. All I was trying to say that deliberately giving me a drug that would cause amnesia (when I requested to be awake) caused me extreme mental harm. Honestly, I feel it's the worst thing anyone could do to me...I should have been told. (I am a relatively heathly woman who will now avoid any surgeries/procedures that are not absolutely necessary...)
The problem with you David is that you just can't get it through your educated head what our objections are and you refuse to even consider that your drug of choice is neither well tolerated nor pleasant. This obtuseness in the medical community is illustrated by you very well, which is probably why Tim allows your posts to remain. You are a clear example of how truly "caring" our anesthetists are. May I suggest some gestaldt therapy David? They will teach you that "what IS, is." Simple concept, but beyond most medical people. The fact is that those of us on this site (which is for Versed SUFFERERS) found Versed to be dehumanizing, demoralizing, humiliating, demeaning, degrading, an assault on that core of us that we call the soul, etc. I hope I haven't left anything out! The Versed also caused a kind of chronic anxiety and panic disorder. You skirt these issues very well in your replies. I can't find anywhere that you have addressed our concerns, just repeated the litany of "pleasant amnesia" while taunting us with your reiterated refrain of how you give love to give this medication. You are deliberately and perhaps maliciously exacerbating our fears about getting this drug again in the future aren't you? Isn't that the point of your posts? You can't possibly believe that after our horrible experiences with this poison, that we might capitulate and say "OH, sorry Doctor, you are a GOD, I was in error, this Versed is just wonderful, thanks for telling me..." Try using that magnificent brain of yours for something other than trying to convince people that just because YOU say it's good, it must be. Why don't you listen to us? Because you really are omnipotent? Because you "know what's best" even if it's harmful? Because total control of an amnestic patient makes you feel like a hero? Why do you antagonize us so cruelly Doctor? What IS, is Doc. You can't change that. Versed is poison for a lot of us. That fact is just a fact and facts don't care about medical degrees.
Another thought for those of you who just adore using Versed on patients; The fear of becoming a zombie is an ativistic trait. Just look at all the zombie thriller movies and take a look at Voodoo, which terrified people for centuries. Being a zombie is not something that most people would want. Why else are you reluctant to tell people that they will be awake, but unaware and that they will obey every command immediately and without question whether they want to obey or not? You won't tell them that they can be questioned and will answer any and all questions without restraint either do you? Their soul will be laid bare and their ability to resist will be non existant. The patient is not even allowed to remember that they have had their privacy and autonomy violated!!! Normal people would object to all of this if you told them the truth. You KNOW they would and that my friends is why there is all this secrecy surrounding Versed.
I was given Versed during an outpatient cardiac catheter ablation procedure. I specifically requested to not be given Versed, because I had had it previously (before General Anesthesia) and had anxiety about the amnesia. Also, I was very interested in the procedure and wanted to be aware of/remember what happened.
Apparently, the doctor I spoke to about not wanting Versed (a cardiology fellow, whose name is not even listed as being on my procedure team in my records) decided that I was "better off" getting the Versed, so he never communicated my wishes to my doctor or nurse.
The last thing I remember was having oxygen put on me in the procedure room, the nurse saying something about Versed. I said "no, don't give me Versed!" and then I was stuck with lidocaine in my groin.
I have some vague recollection of my heart racing (which actually calmed me down) and later seeing two nurses off in the distance who told me it was almost over.
At the end of the procedure, my BP jumped from 90/45 to 140/85 and my HR was 110. I was panic stricken asking my doctor "What happened? How come I don't remember anything??" as I was being wheeled to recovery. I didn't get an answer to my questions.
After the procedure, I started having anxiety, and would wake up at night crying out "What happened to me, please tell me what happened to me!"
The thing is that I have a history of PTSD and dissociative amnesia caused by 2 years of near-daily sexual abuse that was initiated when I was drugged by my babysitter, who was a med student, when I was 10.
Since being given Versed, I have had a complete recurrence of PTSD, and major depression, worse than I have ever had in my life. I am also suicidal, which I have not been since age 14.
I have started therapy and anti-depressant medications in an attempt to get my life back, but it hasn't really helped yet.
The interesting part of this is that every mental health professional I have talked to about Versed and PTSD is horrified that amnestic drugs would be given to someone with PTSD without careful consideration of the potential consequences.
Here is why: Most people with PTSD have some level of inability to remember parts of the traumatic event(s), as a protective device. The brain then associates inability to remember with trauma. After 30 years of this association, amnesia = trauma in my brain.
Trauma responses are not rational, which is why it is pointless to argue with someone having a trauma response that he/she "shouldn't feel that way". It is also why people who have no experience with trauma "don't get" why we feel the way we do.
Here is my question, though. Why is it that people in the mental health field understand this concept so well, but it has never been communicated to the people prescribing these drugs?? I have found no case studies, papers, editorials, etc. written about this subject.
The closest thing is studies about PTSD in former ICU patients, one of which has an interesting quotation:
"This study suggests that even relatively unpleasant memories for real events during critical illness may give some protection from anxiety and the later development of PTSD-related symptoms when memories of delusions are prominent."
Memory, delusions, and the development of acute posttraumatic stress disorder-related symptoms after intensive care.
Clinical Investigations
Critical Care Medicine. 29(3):573-580, March 2001.
Jones, Christina Mphil; Griffiths, Richard D. MD, FRCP; Humphris, Gerry PhD, M Clin Psych; Skirrow, Paul M. BSc
http://www.ccmjournal.com/pt/re/
ccm/abstract.00003246-200103000-
00019.htm;jsessionid=LMxWlFhnlg1
1xwdqT1mwm1lLdytLJnnJQZqhRWz2v2f
X1510GxG0!1629792715!181195629!
8091!-1
Thank you for this site and letting me put my 2 cents in.
Just wanted to thank you for Versed Busters! I had to have surgery recently on my elbow for an ulnar nerve transposition due to the nerve compression from an elbow fracture a few months ago. The doctor was going to do a local arm block for the procedure but had to have an IV in my other arm, just in case he had to give me something to relax me.
A few days before the operation we got the names of the meds so we could check them out. We don't believe in meds unless absolutely necessary. He gave me 2 choices of meds for this and one was Versed -- thus we found your website in our investigation. We called the doctor about Versed even prior to the operation and he was fine w/ no Versed, and agreed he'd use the other if needed, but he really didn't think that I'd need anything else in the non-op arm, since I'm very healthy, slim, etc..
On the day of surgery, just to be sure about no Versed, I'd put Versed on my allergic list during the check-in. In pre-op, the anesthesiologist was questioning my allergy to Versed, was very rude, like he was pushing the use of Versed! I wrote "no Versed" on my consent form. My doctor was just fine with that, and still agreed on the other med, if needed.
Thanks be to God, all went well, and I needed nothing in my non-op arm during the surgery. I was totally awake and remember everything and felt great very quickly after leaving the operating room!
Again, thanks for Versed Busters! More people should arm themselves with knowledge about medications and not trust the doctors so completely!
Nancy, I am so happy for you that everything turned out well...and that you found this site before your surgery ! I was not so lucky. It's been four months since I was given Versed without my knowledge, and I am still obsessed with it. Will I ever be able to completely trust a doctor again ?
Wow, I am amazed to see so many similar stories of people who felt highly abused by this drug. I am astonished that this drug is still legal, quite frankly.
My "story" is written as the first post in this thread
See:
http://allnurses.com/forums/f16/ethical-legal-question-54987.html
and a related thread about whether patients have rights if they are not aware of those rights; see:
http://allnurses.com/forums/f8/question-about-patients-rights-154901.html
I am in nursing school and will advocate for my patients and will honestly explain versed to any and all who ask me. BTW, I won't allow it on me or any loved ones. There are other drugs that can be used that don't cause such mental upset as this one. I also would have been hesitant to believe it if it didn't happen to me.
I have a very low opinion of anesthesiologists and their "I know what's best for you" tripe.
Sis
Nancy:
I am astonished that it is so common for doctors to push versed and be stealthy or deceptive about it. Especially when they have patients who have already had a bad experience with it.
Sis:
I saw your threads a long time ago - interesting discussions.
I continue to hear of doctors and nurses who will not use versed on themselves or friends and relatives. That should be a red flag.
One time I was at a University Dental hospital. I could hear down the hall what sounded like an animal moaning and groaning; I swear it sounded like something straight out of a Dawn of the Dead movie. I finally came to the conclusion that it was a young boy because the dentists/surgeons were talking loudly and saying things like - 'if you would have brushed more we wouldn't have to do this to you' and 'now don't you wish you would have taken better care of your teeth'? The animal-like moaning and sounds would then get louder. The whole thing was horrible to listen to.
It scared the crap out of me and I NEVER went back there.
After reading this blog - I'm thinking he was under 'conscious sedation"?
My own dental surgeon led me to believe that -despite the term conscious sedation - I would be asleep during the dental procedure. Was he telling me the truth? Was I awake like the zombie boy? Or was I asleep?
It's a bit tricky isn't it?
You won't be sound asleep. You will be doing whatever they tell you to do. You will probably talk, or maybe scream, and you may or may not remember any of it, but you won't be asleep.
Can anyone tell me if I will ever get over my fear of being given versed again ? Will I ever be able to remember my experience without feeling anger, anxiety,& emotional pain ? Will I be able to trust the medical profession again ? Do doctors have ANY idea how upsetting amnesia is to some patients, especially when they have not been forewarned ? I actually thought I was doing a good thing by having a screening colonoscopy, but it turned out to be one of the worst decisions I've ever made... Sorry, I just need to vent
Dear Anonymous:
I don't know if we can or even should get over our aversion to Versed.
One thing that bothers me the most is the fact that many practitioners are in a big rush to use and even PUSH Versed, regardless of how we feel about it. Also disturbing is the consistently high level of deceit that surrounds Versed. They won't tell you the name of the drug and they avoid telling you about the amnesia it causes.
Perhaps worse, they have pushed it on people who know what Versed is -and do not want it. Many of these people have already had a bad reaction to it. Some people have PTSD and trust issues, and they too are ignored and have Versed pushed on them.
Versed is simply not necessary and anyone who refuses it should not be given it. Period.
Anybody ever heard of former Dallas Cowboy Ron Springs? He's in a persistent vegetative state because a rookie anesthesiologist forced GA on him for surgery to remove a 2cm cyst from his arm, and his wife has sued for malpractice:
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS252503+22-Jan-2008+PRN20080122
He was not supposed to have received GA b/c he was a poor airway risk (difficult to intubate). A less than 1 inch cyst only requires local anyway, what in the heck was that anesthesiologist thinking? Besides glossing over his history, I have no doubt she foisted Versed on him in the preop holding area so he was in no capacity to question what he was getting in the OR. A real shame after this guy survived an amputation and a kidney transplant - only to be made a vegetable over a small cyst.
I was always given valium/demerol for gi scopes in the past. That combo worked well for years for many people. I'd like to know why those drugs cannot be used for people who do not want Versed. I had no problem with Versed, do have memories coming out of it and talking with the nurses, ate a muffin, went home and did some work. But to those with reactions or fears, it must be very frightening and should be illegal to administer it to you against your will, and should be a prosecutable offense. The medical system needs to be reigned in. No means no.
most anesthesiologist use straight propofol without versed for endoscopy sedation. i usually give 2 mg of versed followed by propofol.
I am going next week for an echocardiogram (fortunately transthoracic). If I end up needing a transesophageal echo, I will make sure I can have it done without any amnestics. Otherwise, I will just not have one.
See below link. Forgive me for asking such an outlandish question, but at what point did human suffering become "amusing"? I must have missed that lecture.
http://www.nurse-anesthesia.org/showpost.php?p=26921&postcount=24
...having read this person's comments, it occurred to me—what need would ever exist for him/her to actually administer anesthesia? Indeed, his/her breathtaking insensitivity strikes me as quite enough to cause a thinking person to pass out in utter disbelief.
p.s. A huge thank you to the creators of the Versed Busters site! I think it's wonderful that someone out there is actually raising people's awareness to the medical profession's widespread and cavalier use of this inhumane drug.
In response to the comments on that forum:
I have been brought into the OR wide awake many times. What's the big deal? I have no problem being offered pre-op sedatives, but it should be my choice. I like to get through a procedure with the least amount of drugs possible.
As to the "odd" comment, I find it odd that anyone would pretend any drug is perfect. Versed in particular appears to cause a large number of complaints.
I find it odd that a practitioner would push versed on me in the first place, especially since I have had a bad reaction to it in the past.
Perhaps someone could explain to me why my desire to avoid Versed is such a radical idea - especially given the horror stories - including my own bad experience ???
Wow, that is a pretty scary thread to me. It does reinforce the idea that most anesthetists just follow their favorite protocol, lots of Versed, and don't even bother to consider a patient's history or requests. We can only hope that Instant Karma is going to get them someday.
And anyone who thinks depression, PTSD and suicide is amusing, is pretty sick, I think.
They also use versed and other memory wiping drugs b/c they do not want you to remember that:
1. The person they told you would be performing the surgery is not. Four residents will be sharing surgical responsibilites you surgeon is just supervising.
2. They do not want you to know they intend to violate gender specific requests for certain care.
3. They do not want you to know a gang of 6-12 residents, students performed practice pelvic, rectal, and breast exams on you.
4. They do not want to bother respecting dignity in any way, closing doors, keeping you covered as much as possible...
5. They do not want you to know they often allow other observers into the room including equipment sales reps.
Names:
Dr. Judith Collins, OHSU/PDX VA Portland OR
Dr. Karen Kwong, OHSU/PDX VA Portland OR
OHSU/PDX VA wipes memory of patient battery. They fail to gain informed consent not only for the drug but for student exams and resident/trainee/stuent surgeries.
Anonymous:
Some clarification please.
Are the docs you listed good or bad, and why?
What is "OHSU/PDX VA" ?
Thanks.
Here's a good article about informed consent - Israeli students are refusing to perform intimate examinations on anaesthetised women without their informed consent - as they should be!
One poster got right to the point:
It is a disgrace that this topic should even be debated. For a student (or anyone!) to place their fingers in a woman's vagina without her consent is sexual assault. Period.
Appalling is the notion that consent is not sought because it is likely to be refused!
http://student.bmj.com/issues/08/07/editorials/262.php
All of this applies to the administration of Versed as well.
You sound like a bunch of control freaks.
What were you going to do during surgery? Take notes?
Admiral:
Please read the posts before you go off.
The major points here include:
* Being lied to about the effects of the drug.
* Having the drug forced on you. It is just plain not necessary to have Versed. Too many times a doc has pushed their own plan on a person who does not want an amnesia drug.
* Many people have bad experiences with this drug. It seems unusual in this regard - compare to valium, for instance. We would just like to warn others.
* I have been given the option to remain awake for numerous surgeries and it is a breeze. Why push versed on me? Besides, this is a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
* I want to get through surgery using as few drugs as possible. Again, Versed is just not necessary.
Versed has caused many of us to experience long term side effects.
I was 44 when I was given Versed for a hernia repair. At that point in my life I had many surgeries, some under local and others under general. I did fine in the past. After the hernia fix, I experienced the following side effects:
* Memory loss beyond the day of surgery. Unable to recall chunks of information at work (I was an engineer at the time).
* Shorter attention span. I had much more difficulty paying attention to a conversation, playing a game of chess, reading, etc. It is now four years later, and it is only now I seem much better - but still not what it used to be.
* Since the surgery I have continued to experience far more "Senior Moments" than before. Example: if I am distracted - say I am on the phone - I might set my keys down and not be able to recall where after five minutes. Before the surgery I never did things like that. Now it is common.
* I find that I am more clumsy, accident prone, etc. Simple example, knocking over the salt while reaching for the pepper.
* Exaggerated startle response. Since the surgery, I overreact if I am surprised by bumping into something, getting jabbed, etc.
* Before the surgery, my dreams used to run along certain lines. Now the content and mood is all different. As the Pink Floyd song says, "There's someone in my head but it's not me." Also my sleep is not as refreshing.
* I am not the only person to report these weird memory/anxiety attacks: One suddenly has the feeling that a memory is trying to surface. Like when you know someone's name but can't quite access it. In my case, as I tried to focus the memory, a feeling of panic started and increased as I tried to force the memory to gel. This panic was so strong at times I had to excuse myself and sit it out somewhere.
The frequency and intensity of these episodes lessened over time - almost four years.
Admiral, I'm sorry you seem to have an issue with us trying to warn others of our bad experiences. I would advise you to wash your hands a lot during cold season, do not run with scissors in your hand, do not drive while intoxicated, don't smoke, stay alert when walking in an unfamiliar town, get regular exercise, brush and floss, and all that good stuff - but you are free to ignore anything I say. By all means, form your own opinion.
I sincerely hope that if you ever get Versed you don't suffer the crap we have.
I recently had a minor procedure (endoscopic examination) and was given versed 7mg with Fentayl 100mcg. I am sorry for anyone who has had a bad experience with this drug , and this site definitely made me wary. I went back and check and then saw I had received versed. I had a mostly pleasant experience with it personally. It was administered as I was in the OR just as another anesthetic would have been. I believe I was not couscous enough to respond to commands nor was I talking. I was also only having a minor procedure that I could have been awake for if this had been desired and it was not that uncomfortable though. Here is what I think the problem is.
I think this drug was born in 1985 or so but the later more wide spread initial increase in usage and use by inexperienced anesthesiologists and perhaps aggressive over marketing by the manufacture may have resulted in it being used improperly or for the wrong types of procedures.
As far as I understood it the memory loss was a side effect and I have experience this to a somewhat lesser degree when I had Nitrous Oxide at the dentist or general anesthesia as well. I would not be surprised if the manufacture tried initially to differentiate their drug with the spin that the higher occurrence of memory loss was some feature that set it apart from other twilight sleep inducing medications. This may have been passed along to patients and when presented like this quite rightly would creep some people out.
I don't think responsible medical staff tout this as a benefit anymore but rather list it on your sheet as an increased side effect over what you would also experience to a smaller degree on other agents. I also I feel this medication while common in minor procedures because it takes effect quickly and wares off quickly is probably very different from use in a major surgery where twilight sedation is not generally acceptable. Ie they would not give you nitrous oxide and a couple percocet and then cut you open.
In my opinion anytime a patient is couscous enough to experience the surgical procedure while it's happening during a major operation then the anesthesiologist is not doing their job. This could also be due to not having your current body weight and all other medications properly listed on the pre-surgery form (I always weigh myself a few days, and then the night, before a procedure as they don't usually weigh you their but they will ask again before they anesthetize you.
I know there are also people who will have had very bad reactions to this drug, and I have read about this happening under full sedation with other drugs not just Versed as well. Death or brain damage has sometimes resulted, as this is serious with anesthetics in general. I don't think Versed is alone in this respect. I have also read seizer is an uncommon but possible reaction of this medication in some and I would imagine that if a patient went into convolutions in the middle of a procedure they may likely need to be quickly and throughly restrained. I imagine thrashing about with instruments even just a scope inside you could be deadly very quickly. I know when someone has a seizure they must have their head immobilized to reduce neck injury , head banging , and swallowing of the tung must be prevented. I would expect that if not quickly and completely immobilizing me could have fatal consequences that I would prefer the bruises and finger marks from where they had to hold me down for the doctor to safely remove the instrument's before I suffered serious internal trauma. It sounds like the staff was avoiding properly discussing these events though with some of the patients who woke up with bruises and a sore neck (maybe due to fear of legal action).
Anytime someone is having a nightmare or dreaming or conscious of the surgical manipulation or pain then inadequate sedation was used wither it was by the wrong amount or the wrong application of the drug to a procedure that should never have been done under twilight sleep in the first place. I also read that this drug can have different levels of sedation depending on the amount to the persons body weight and only the lighter couple states appear to allow you to be responsive verbally or follow instruction. For most purposes when sedation is effective even shaking the patent should not rouse much of a response. Even with the next couple lighter states of sedation up from that the best the patient could do would be to briefly slur gibberish or very simple semi-coherent verbal responses if you called their name loudly and /or shook them repeatedly.
These instances of it being given pre op to relax in a very low dose may have resulted in making people talk silly and then not remember but unless your having an anxiety attack and your BP is through the roof before they even get you into the OR (which means they have possibly not have been very good at explaining things to you or you, involving you and easing your concerns) this pre relaxer method doesn't seem to be an ideal way of doing things though for them or for the patient. I also read that if they use regular unconscious anesthetics not twilight in addition they have to be very careful of the combined effects with the versed. I don't know what the point of giving so low a dose that you are still responsive prior to taking you to the OR would be (sounds like another use pushed by a marketing scheme by the manufacturer and I hope it's not so common anymore.)
As for the not telling you about versed in my experience they never mention the agents they are using even in non conscious anesthesia but for those and for Versed I got a sheet mentioning the name and type of sedation and the post op instructions for side effects. These were the same Versed or no and even with other anesthesia they did not discuss the results with you right away unless you brought another person with you to hear them because right after the anesthesia they know you will not remember what they tell you. Versed just seems to have more of this lingering side effect.
The stories here are frightening and never should have happened and I feel very sorry for those who had to endure these incidents. I think unless you are required to be awake enough to respond for procedures like a wound dressing or certain brain surgeries that it seems like most of these incidents are either bad reactions or plain incompetence by the anesthesiologists not administering their drugs properly or mis application (using the wrong anesthetic for the job) I would imagine that a drug where violently shaking a patient can possibly get even a mild reaction (and since this drugs sedation wares off vary quickly)that any use on non minor , long duration operations where cutting into the patient is going on would this is completely inappropriate. I would imaging being sliced open and internal organ pain is at least as jarring as a good shaking especially if the pain killer part of the cocktail is not administered correctly.
Their is no reason during something painfull and frightening for a patent to ever unnecessarily be aware of the procedure. Unfortunately I have heard of this happening with other anesthetics as well when not aquatically administered and maintained including the awakening or being aware of the surgery. For those that did wake up during even for those who didn't have pain and thought it was interesting not terrifying I think this is always a sign of incompetence on the anesthesiologists part. If were not told you were going to experience the surgery or that your were supposed to be wake for the procedure or woke up part way though I think it's because this was not supposed to happen. I don't think this was likely an indication that you were meant to experience the operation then forget it afterwards like they were relying amnesia in place of sedation. I don't think it's like hey they won't remember lets go to town as most surgeons (like most people in general) don't actually prefer to see another person in excruciating agony and this certainly doesn't make their job or the operation any easier for them. With the exception of those who had bad reactions, for the other cases on here I'd not be surprised if the surgeon was chewing out the anesthesiologist in the back hallway after you went home. You would never see this though.
When you woke up partially and had these traumatic experiences , I'd bet What they are probably not telling you is that someone screwed up big time ie the anesthesiologist in administering or the hospital in using the wrong sedation type for a given procedure. They will in that case most likely be content to let you blame the drug not them. It's the famous out of "Oh everything went fine or there we some problems but mostly what you experienced was normal. Yeah thats the ticket we um meant to do that and have you wake up in the middle happens sometimes you know with this versed stuff so sorry we didn't tell but that's the way that drug works. So bad drug not bad staff don't sue us. It explains them being tight lipped about what happened too.
I think as far as being abused that wither your incapacitated in twilight sleep and under conscious sedation, just doped up, or even fully unconscious even under other medications you are pretty much helpless and relying quite a bit on trust just for competence leave alone the assumption you will not intentionally be abused by your care givers. So choosing a doctor/surgeon/hospital that you are are completely comfortable with is extremely important. Any decent Hospital who has a anesthesiologist screw up like is apparent here would not be hiring them again since not only were you upset and traumatized but they could have been liable and certainly looked bad. Unconscious sedation or even other twilight meds don't allow you to clearly recall if at all to evaluate care so I don't know how much the memory loss side effect puts you much greater risk as if your fully under they aren't going to be like oops he's watching me operate either.
I read here about people realizing they were being roughly handled ( when they became aware) and again I think perhaps a lot of certain procedures are not gentle, pleasant or even tolerable things and perhaps more like a mechanic working on your car. They were not meant to be experienced by the patient during the operation at all regardless of wither the anesthesia causes memory loss. Before the advent of anesthesia most surgeries were not possible and many more so unbearable the person even if they could hold still would like likely go into shock and at the least be traumatized. Your body and mind pain and fear wise , (if your aware of what's going on regarded less of memory)don't likely experience a major surgery much differently then being butchered. I think the problem is not that they indented to torture and abuse and lied to give people a memory wiper to get away with it or conceal malpractice.(This memory loss isn't always present and to varying degrees and not something to be relied on. I think they didn't bother telling you you were getting this antithetic or that one or some odd or the other period as they often don't even with other meds. They do tell you of common side effects, of groggy or hazy memory effects (telling you not to drive or make financial or other important decisions for 24 hours).
I do think some of these are potential malpractice cases (except for the unfortunate allergic reactions/convulsions) and I wonder if anyone had talked to a lawyer after wards about the anesthesiologists liability ?
I think being terrified of your surgery and certainly accusing the staff of secretly trying to wipe your memory is not necessarily helpful. I know they don't ask if you read about any of the anesthetics on the internet and they assume most people don't want or need to know the chemical compounds just the side effects. I'm glade I came here after not before my surgery or I'd had been scared to death of Versed. I do think many of the people here were lied too but not about some Scifi worthy "men in black" memory erasing concoction they were given but about incompetence , poor communication and some serious mal-practice in some cases, as well as common side effects (pronounced memory short term memory loss following administration for several hours in this case) and so forth. Also for those few who found that they had forgotten thier ATM pins or job procedures and such later I suspect that they may have had at least a low grade seizer due to a reaction to the medication which certainly could cause this. perhaps this was down played by the staff again due to malpractice concerns I've heard of them being sued for administering CPR when they cracked ribs resuscitating for example so I'm sure they would down play seizer and restraint and just say you had a reaction to Versed so you should list it as an allergy and advise of this to future surgeons no matter what they plan to use to sedate you. (yes that is the basic truth just without elaboration). I'd have considered calling a lawyer but the issues may have less to do with drug used than their incompetence in using it properly and safely. .
in relpy, for endoscopy i use only 2 mg versed followed by propofol for most patients. for upper endoscopy topical spray with cetacaine or hurricaine spays helps reduce the amount of IV sedation. for ERCP i usually upfront 2-4 mg versed , 20 mg ketamine followed by propofol infusion titrated to sedation.
Let me say I agree that if medical staff are giving this just as if it were a 20 minute Prozac to difficult , complaining or those with phobias , necroses, hypochondriacs and so forth this is wrong. I also noticed this use seems tied to the question they ask pre-op of wither you normally over anxious or fearful of surgeries. If you tell them hospitals scare you and you panic before surgery though they seem to then give you a little a bit early as opposed to just using the combo of this and another drug in the operating room like any other anesthesia.
With millions of people getting this drug for all kinds of procedures all the time there are no doubt going to be a hundred here who had undiagnosed Multiple sucroses, 200 over there with Alzheimer about to set in, and some who are being poisoned by something else carbon monoxide,Radon and some with depression or who may get cancer or a brain tumor etc.
It may just be odds and with these things so prevalent and versed so prevalent. Statistically if you think about it there would have to be a certain percentage of people getting sick , a day , week or month after the surgery even if they had not had the surgery.
I would suggest for some suffering long term effects years later (especially those not listed as a known side effect or shown in thousands and thousands of people) that you not exclude other possible causes and still get these symptoms checked with some objectivity just in case there is something else going on too.
It's human nature to attribute an event as a cause to an occurrence that happens shortly there after. Especially if your versed short term side effects and the new symptoms are similar. I knew someone who had Multiple Sclerosis symptoms set in after taking versed and they assumed the concentrating and co-ordination\memory issues were versed since the started immediately after they had an unpleasant experience with versed. They were given the diagnoses though of MS. Then they recalled that they had also had something hit them in the head prior to their first symptoms they and they wondered if it was responsible even though the doctors said no that scaring lesions on the brain had been progressing for years before the fist symptoms major signs were noticed. Then since doctors don't know the cause for of this disease, they had all their metal filling removed at the dentist as they read in the internet that a bunch of people with MS had metal fillings and were sure their MS was the result and they knew that metal poisoning had similar symptoms.
If the cable guy came out to install cable and after he leaves your TV don't turn on any more of course you may be like hey jerk what did you do to my TV ? It's not until you take it to the repair shop and the guy says the tube wore out that you'd stop demanding the cable company replace your TV. Never forget that sometimes, just somtimes things are just a coincidence.
I'm not discounting anyones problems or suggesting it's not the versed but it pays to keep in mind that the similarity and time line of events isn't always a sure indicator of the cause.
If I had years of memory problems I'd have that checked out as well though and see what a neurologist and MRI says about it without assuming versed. That is not assume it's a lock because someone had the same issue or lots of people notice problems too. Since if you started feeling ill after you took versed (especially if it was disconcerting or a bad experience) and so you Google it this is the 3rd result to appear so it could be a magnet for these people as well. So while lots of people will be even more inclined to say ah ha I knew it was versed look at all these others I'd not forgo having any symptoms checked on their own merit in some cases as well least you let something slip by you under the assumption you've located the cause.
I'm not saying versed may not have caused any or most individuals problems but for lingering or unusual issues and if many maladies hence forth are plaguing you. or i ftaking this medication once somehow inexplicably ruined you whole life after you got home from the hospital in unexpected and unexplained ways and your solely basing that assumption on the time line and similar other peoples assumptions or accounts I'd never forget that sometimes similar things occur. I'd also consider that multiple things of a similar nature sometimes coincide without out having the same cause and if ever this happens for versed (and sometimes it must just statistically )that a person suspects versed they will likely be drawn here if they Google it out of suspicion. So always check facts and rule out any other causes too. If there is something else going on for anyone they do not want to miss treatment for it and suffer needlessly or worse let that brain tumor or what have you go unchecked thinking oh it's just the versed because it started manifesting around the same time.
For those who are traumatized or otherwise emotionally suffering don't assume therapy or some treatment can't help you cope or offer a better quality of life. Anything emotionally effecting the quality of your life withers it's from versed trauma or that tour of duty you just finished in Iraq, the loss of a loved one , or just plain stress , depression and anxiety don't ever give up and think your just damaged. Get all the help you can to feel better it's useful for any anguish you feel now regardless of the cause and what happened to start it in the past.
in reply to David
Yes I had no problem with versed, and if I'd not randomly come across this blog (from a news link having nothing to do with the procedure)
I'd have never even known the name of what I had been given. The only thing I knew was that while I'd recovered pretty fast and it seemed I was not waking up groggy in post op, and my memory not being great for a few hours past till I napped. I assumed I'd been out cold the whole time except I was not quite in bed when I recall waking up but I'm sure I'd just been wheeled out and stood up, told ok were all done and handed a report. There seems to be alot of confusion about this medication. What is the real purpose of it and do you have people normally talk act foolish under it ? Do you see it mostly in minor procedures now days or is it useful in bigger surgeries. It's twilight sleep, muscle relaxant and calming correct ?, but also causes memory loss. I mean the memory loss isn't some grand new feature for anesthetics right (though some people may be glad not to remember).
Seems there are people on here demanding anesthesia free colonoscopy so they can watch and you have others that say they were traumatized by the pain of one and tried to jump off the table and run away wither it's safe to do so or not. I wonder if that med free women got Peejays old doctor if she could convince her to not use and anesthesia ?
in repley to Peejay I'm thinking sure even if you wake up your judgment can not be known to be sound necessarily (they can't assume that as you were just sedated a moment prior)even if it was the case right then (I'm sure freaking out and struggling and tensing up would only make it hurt worse) and they can't necessarily stop mid way and yank it out quick or have somone jump up and try to run off down the halls screaming rape and stabbing themselfves on the inside the machine trailing behind them (assuming it has wheels) . The doctor could have been explaining to a persons family that they woke up suddenly and perforated their intestine and later died of infection or bleeding because of struggling and getting up in the middle. The "they no longer had my consent remark is a little odd" They can't rely on your consent when you are for all they know still inebriated or irrational. It's not like a colonoscopy is sex or is something they tell you can be stopped at anytime on your whim. I'm sure the doctor wanted it done ASAP too but didn't want to cause harm. That's why you sign the consent form and it doesn't say as long as it dose not hurt too much at some point. Good luck getting insurance to pay for 1 and a half colonscopy procedures because you changed your mind. I'm not sure why they would not put you under again unless they were almost done or just trying to keep you from hurting your self. I some one was going to be mad about that I think the fault is that they woke up when they were not supposed to. The doctor was likely not thrilled either and she likely left afterward to avoid being agitated in front of the patient. I'm sure it was a nightmare for her stressful as it was painful for the patient and she did not want confrontation while she being called a rapist. Maybe she slapped on the thigh out of anger or maybe she thought you going to hurt yourself if you didn't comply.
David, are you still here ? I am still confused whose side you're really on. I am fairly new to this blog (55-yr old woman who was given versed for a colonoscopy),and while some of our opinions may seem extreme, I assure you most of us are normal, everyday people from every walk of life . The only question I cannot get answered is WHY most (not all) doctors do not tell patients about the versed-induced amnesia ? That's the main issue with me. I really wonder if maybe I would not have freaked out so much or felt so mentally violated if someone had explained it to me IN ADVANCE. Don't tell me I should have asked - I DID'T KNOW AMNESIA DRUGS EVEN EXISTED ! AND.. I requested to be awake for the procedure, so I do indeed feel betrayed. (Also, it was not explained in my consent form, of which I have a copy) Yes, I do believe MOST patients probably do not have any negative effects from the drug, and maybe do not even mind it was used...but there are many patients who have been traumatized (YES, you heard me right) by it's use. I have an intense fear now of having another procedure/surgery, and have lost a lot of respect for doctors . Believe me, if I could go back and "un-do" having the procedure, I would...and I'd be a trusting,anxiety-free woman today. I will never have closure until I believe in my heart that Versed was used to help me, not hurt me...and that doctors do actually listen to and care about patients' feelings.
yes, i am reading your postings and most of the comments have to do with endoscopy procedures which are minor, usually fast, and don't always require anesthesia or an anesthesiologist. I am board certified, fellowship trained in Obstetric anesthesia and do mostly OB anesthesia and some general practice. most anesthesiologists use only propofol for endoscopy procedures. it should be mentioned that colonoscopy can be a live saving procedure if colon cancer is detected in early stages. still every person can accept or refuse medical care and advice.
David:
A doctor told a friend of mine "Nobody should ever die from colon cancer!"
My point is, colonoscopy is our friend!
My understanding is that colon cancer can be cured as long as people don't wait around.
I agree with you, people should be screened when their doctor thinks it's time.
I just won't have Versed with mine!
To John: who referring to his wife said "her cognitive skills had been damaged. Not just her short term memory. This appears to be the result of Encephalopathy Hypoxia"
So sorry and good luck in your legal battle. I agree it is likely what many of the people here with long term cognitive and recall problems should consider that they have stopped breathing and suffered mild brain damage and would be surprised if these events were kept from them and their families due to the staff's C.O.Y.A (cover your own A**) tactics since the patient may not remember resuscitation. Get a lawyer, get your records, See a neurologist. I'm not usually in favor of suing but if these RNs and doctors love Versed because they can use it even when less qualified than they should be and then they goof and damage your brain, not only should you be compensated but there should be a legal consequence to give them pause and hold them accountable for patient safety. It's not just the drug it's the people using it improperly and/or not trained or equipped to respond as effectively when you stop breathing. Why are these RNs giving this when they can't give the other meds ? Clearly it's not as safe they think and having the you could die and understand the risk clause in the consent form is little comfort. Do you really understand the risk if you don't understand the significance of an RN is giving you these drugs ? maybe they err on the side of much higher adose to make sure your outcold and don't monitor you as closely as should be being done.
I highly suggest you check out a book called:
"The Brain That Changes Itself" -"Stories of Personal Triumph from the Frontiers of Brain Science"
By Norman Doidge, M.D.
While it is written by a psychiatrist and psychoanalyst it focuses on, and includes information from scientists researching in neuroplasticity and details cases of those with brain injuries or illnesses who have had some very interesting and positive recovery. It focuses on the fact the researchers now know that the brain is not nearly as fixed or static as was once believed but is rather much more pliable and plastic and how it is often capable of re-wiring itself in time (especially with the right types of exercises and therapies) to compensate for damage in one area by training other brain areas to assume the lost functionality and assist to compensate for the damaged areas.
We have all heard the mention of how people who have had serious brain injuries and recovered have sometimes said how they "had to learn to walk, or speak all over again and describe it as learning a different way to do these tasks or learn as if a child again. I never realized that what they are describing is not likely actually walking or talking in a manner different than before but rather their brain learning to use another area to assist in preforming these tasks. This reassigning or compensation appears to even be evident in brain scans taken after improvement (which show images of their brain activity in various regions) compared to those prior.
It is very inspiring actually, comforting and interesting.
This is amazing:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,427788,00.html
The man sued his surgeon, the urology practice, AND the anesthesiologist because he went in for a routine circumcision for inflammation and ended up having his penis removed due to cancer. The anesthesiologist was named because the man was given general anesthesia without his consent (he claims he asked that GA *NOT* be administered). I wonder if he was slipped the ol' Versed to facilitate doing whatever was convenient.
The reason I linked the news story is to show how patients' rights and informed consent are totally disregarded by many in the medical community. Use of Versed is just part of the problem of disregard for patients in general.
To anonymous; it was the Versed that caused my problems. It is also very interesting that you defend the pummeling of patients by their physician as possibly for the patient's own good. As far as insurance paying for half of a colonoscopy, too bad for the doctor! Is this a reason to continue an agonizing procedure? Just so the Doc can get full pay??? Maybe not... Informed consent is a big deal to all of us here. Call your state senator's and request that Versed have a much more defined risk/benefit profile, featuring some of our identical symptoms from Versed in a separate informed consent. The amnesia is a biggy and we should be well aware that this drug will do that. Let them know that we are tired of the abuse and unnecessary expense of this nasty drug!
DAVID the DR....
I am leaving this post for David the anesthesiologist. David could you email me from here please? I have a question i would like to ask you about something......and yes it has to do with sedation during surgery, I just dont feel comfortable asking my question in such a public forum, for serveral reasons. So if you dont mind just link on my name here and i am sure it will show you how you can email me here on google. Thank you for your time.
Thank You
D,,,,
To the Admiral; No I wasn't planning on taking notes during surgery. Do you think that writing utensils can go through the autoclave? I wonder. What I was planning is watching them so that they didn't SCREW UP! Since they decided that I was unimportant and wasn't allowed to watch, they were careless and did screw up. You bet I'm a control freak, but my control issues pale in comparison to the control issues that Doctors have!!! Every single time Doctors have been turned loose with my unconscious body sans my supervision they have screwed up. It only takes a couple of botched surgeries to realize that medical people can't be trusted with anesthetized patients. This is not a prejudice, it's an informed bias.
This is a snippet from the blog of a woman considering a colonoscopy: Her doctor told her, “the sedation they use would work much better if I wasn't panicked and terrified, so to go home and think about it, and make the appointment when I felt comfortable. Oh great. Now I've got a reason to be worried that the sedation won't work????? Not what I needed to hear."
I thought the purpose of a sedative was to calm the patient. Now you have to already BE calm for a sedative(I assume they are referring to Versed)to work?! So what is the REAL reason they use it??!
You'll love this comment from Virginia. I called to make an appt for a colonoscopy and said I have severe reactions from versed. Two days later the nurse called me back, said she spoke with the docs and they would only give me a 'little' versed. Are they kidding? God, what jerks!
I called for an appt for colonoscopy and told nurse I have traumatic reactions to versed (cant remember bank pin, etc for several days). She called me back three days later, said she talked to the 14-group docs and they will only use a 'little' versed. Are they frigging kidding me? What a joke!
dear david the anesthesiologist: Go screw yourself. You're good at hiding when something goes wrong at 11:00 p.m. Anesthesiologists are a bunch of jerks and I should know - I'm risk management. Go take a klonopin!
It is time for my 10 year colonoscopy and it's beginning to be a joke! Not one nurse or doc I've talked to can tell me why they use versed. When I remark it isnt a pain killer, they are stumped and say, "we'll use a little". For what? The answer is they dont want you to know how rough they are, or they dont care about you are all - only the $$$. I added to my medic alert bracelet that I'm allergic to versed. Let them munch on that!
This is for anybody who is reading this who has NOT experienced Versed. DON'T RISK IT!!!! If you are one of those that has an extreme reaction to this drug, it won't get better with time. When you think you are finally over it something will key your memory and you will be right back where you were! Obsession, anxiety, sleeplessness, nervousness, inability to concentrate, depression, etc. will be your companions again. If you want to keep your sanity don't let the medical community push this drug on you!!!! You might get lucky and not have this reaction, but the alternative is just too horrendous to risk!
After the use of Versed on me that resulted in PTSD, and severe depression and anxiety attacks, I have on every Dr that I go to that I'm allergic to Versed and I've bought medic alert bracelets for me and every member of my family stating that they are allergic to versed also. I never, ever want that evil mild-altering poision to be used on me or anyone else that I know. We all need to complain to the FDA to ban it from the market, it does way more harm that good. I've noticed that the Dr's that REALLY care about their patients, refuse to use crap on them for sedation....those are the ones that I still with and recommend to my my friends and family.
There is an interesting discussion at www.medhelp.org in the Gastroenterology Community ( "Is 11mg of (Versed) Midazolam excessive?") Another Versed victim...
On the positive side of things, I met with my primary care doctor, and she said that she is now much more careful about explaining about Versed to her patients that she refers for colonoscopies and other procedures. She tells them that they will be awake but normally would be given a drug that causes amnesia, so that they won't remember the procedure. She asks them how they feel about that and whether they would want it.
Enlightening reading:
Blog entry in which anesthesiologist declares, "I don't believe in informed consent."
I want to point out something that happened during my 3rd open reduction on my femur. I was wide awake with only an epidural for pain relief, along with Morphine, which killed the residual pain. In the middle of the 6 hour surgery my Doctor had to stop and send out for an additional "informed consent" for a bone graft. I signed it while I was right there on the table in the OR. Thank God I had the anesthesiologist I had. It would have been horrible to have to wake up from GA, wait for hours to fight off the Versed, and then be put back to sleep! Especially since I fight these drugs and have to be restrained. Also, although I wasn't going to tell my surgeon how to do his job, it was interesting to see that Dr. Levin (of Santa Cruz Ca. now retired) used familiar body shop type tools to place the pin. They set up mirrors so I could watch. The whole thing was not traumatizing in the slightest bit. The anesthesiologist and I decided to let me feel more pain toward the end of the operation, so that I could get out of the PACU quicker. He told me that they couldn't sterilize the pizza I wanted Domino's to deliver and I was STARVING!!! I got PTSD from a far simpler operation because they used Versed on me...
I have had several uppper-GI endoscopies, the second one was without Versed, just pain killers and muscle relaxants.
In that case I clearly remembered the several minutes of gagging and smothering-sensation (I imagine it was like water-boarding torture), but my muscles were paralyzed due to the other drugs used in the procedure and I obviously couldn't talk.
I just want to say there are some procedures that aren't painful, but you don't want to remember. I have requested Versed for all endoscopies since then. Although, with Versed, I do awake a little groggy and without memory of the torture, ooops I mean procedure. I can tell you the last time I remember on the procedure room's clock, before Versed was given. Some of you commented about PTSD from not remembering, there ARE some procedures (intubation, chest tubes, some biopsies, etc.) you don't want to remember!
This drug has its place by not requiring you to be so heavily sedated (which is safer) by stronger drugs that bring a whole host of dangers (respiratory depression, etc.). You don't remember anything under general anesthesia anyway, so I don't see why not remembering is such a problem.
I don't understand why remembering is such a big deal! If I'm going to be AWAKE for the procedure ANYWAY, I want to have those memories in a retrievable spot in my mind. There is nothing worse than not knowing for me. I DO want to remember what happens to me while I'm awake. I would also like to know what happens to me while I'm knocked out with g/a, but that's another story. You can be heavily sedated with Versed alone and those problems you mention are also problems with Versed. I just found a medical site that lists all kinds of medical problems with Versed reported by DOCTORS AND PHARMACISTS!!! Maybe Tim will put it up for us to look at...
To Anonymous who says "Some of you commented about PTSD from not remembering, there ARE some procedures (intubation, chest tubes, some biopsies, etc.) you don't want to remember!"
I don't think you are in a place to say what I don't want to remember, only what is appropriate for you, yourself.
If you tolerate Versed well, and like it, good for you. Just please don't tell me under which circumstances I should be given it, and that I should not have a choice because of what you (or anyone else) would want.
To the anonymous who posted on Oct 16 about the anesthetists screwing themselves... You are absolutely correct! I would like to invite my CRNA to perform an unnatural sex act upon himself as well! Does Klonopin do anything for delusions of grandeur and illusions of omnipotence? A suggestion of a particular drug which would help them might be better than telling them to stick it up... well, you know.
Folks:
I understand a lot of us are annoyed or even very angry, but I would appreciate it if the flame wars and name calling ceased. I would like the blog to be as palatable to the "other side" as possible.
I realize there will be hardheaded people in any business, but I do not want to alienate the Docs, CRNA's etc. who are actually listening to our concerns.
This is where you guys should leave the medical aspect of things to the professionals. Versed is an active part of an anesthesia. You should actually be happy it is given due to the fact that it able to be reversed unlike propofol(diprivan) that is given in combination with versed during concious sedation, which is not reversable. Giving versed lowers the amount of propofol needed to maintain a thereputic level of sedation during colo cases, etc. Now I don't care how interested you are in surgery you under no circumstances need to be awake. If your interested in surgery look it up on the internet. There are several risks to having a patient awake such as unnessesary movement, which could cause internal damage. You the patient get to retain your right to sue even though you are at fault. Whether it is given pre-operativly or not it will be given in the O.R. Since none of you have an clinical, pharmacological, pathophysiologic, or Anesthesia knowledge I would just do as your told and cooperate. It is a shame when a website is started by morons whom have no idea about anything. If you don't like it tuff. With the mentality you present then you could say that the anesthesia provider slipped you narcotics without your permission because I can tell you fentanyl was given to you in the O.R. It is people like you that makes Anesthesia hard simply because you think you no more! If you have questions about what they were giving you in your iv you could have said something before it was given.
I know Tim doesn't want any flame wars here so he will probably send us both back to where we came from, but I have a question... Who crowned you king? I have every right to watch my surgery, whenever possible. I have every right to have each and every medication explained to me IN GREAT DETAIL! No matter how long it takes. Its the LAW you dummy. "Informed" consent isn't informedconsent. It means that it is *YOUR* DUTY as an anesthesia provider to give us information BEFORE YOU INJECT US! You have your wires crossed. This is for the patients' benefit not yours. You act like its a "hold harmless agreement" and you can go to any lengths to con the patient into signing it without revealing your subversive intent. I didn't go on your site and make fun of you and be arrogant and dismissive, did I? Do as your told???? You better think about that statement honey, it will get you sued. *YOU* ARE REQUIERED BY LAW TO DO AS *YOU* ARE TOLD! If I say *no* you little moron, you better respect that. Of course everybody knows that Valium is exactly the same as Versed. What an ignorant statement. Versed has zero side effects. Another ignorant statement. Everybody just loves Versed! This from our esteemed medical people who feel that they know just everything about everything! You aren't going to give me Propofol either. If anesthesia is just so hard, sniff, because of these stupid PATIENTS that we have to deal with, my suggestion is "go collect garbage." That is where you belong with your attitude. You don't need to try to work with human beings. This is beyond your limited capabilities. If you think your post is in any way a good reflection on CRNA's, babe, you really have a screw loose. I will have a Doctor next time, which is also my right! Why have a CRNA with delusions of granduer, when for the same price we can have a real Doctor instead of a glorified nurse. Stick that in your craw armygas (or whoever you are) and smoke it! We did question what the drug was and were LIED to. You can add liar to the laundry list of your failure as a person and an anesthetist So let's see, I am a stupid moron who is ignorant of medical procedures, ( that is *YOUR* fault for not doing your job properly) while YOU are a devious liar, insufferably arrogant, misinformed, delusional, and you have no people skills. You really think that I will "do as I'm told" with the likes of YOU at the helm? You really are thick as a plank if you think that.
"Anonymous", I am very disturbed by your comments. I would like to know if you are a CRNA, anesthesiologist, nurse, or physician ? You seem to miss the point we are trying to make. Many of us have been traumatized by being given Versed without knowledge or explanation of the amnesia effects...yes, TRAUMATIZED. I do not know why some of us feel this way, but PLEASE do not attack us or trivialize our feelings.
Anonymous said...
"This is where you guys should leave the medical aspect of things to the professionals. Versed is an active part of an anesthesia. You should actually be happy it is given due to the fact that it able to be reversed . . . "
Once again, either missing the point or pretending to.
Since I have had a bad reaction to Versed in the past, I don't think I need a degree in medicine to conclude I should not use it again. Even the doc who originally used it on me said as much, as well as my primary physician. This conclusion is not rocket science.
"Now I don't care how interested you are in surgery you under no circumstances need to be awake."
Let's all stop with this thread. Being awake is an option for some procedures. You folks are the ones who offer the option in those cases.
I don't really care one way or the other. All I am asking is that the minimum amount of drugs be used when there is a range of options available. And I want the truth, which obviously a few of you folks are unwilling to provide.
"Since none of you have an clinical, pharmacological, pathophysiologic, or Anesthesia knowledge I would just do as your told and cooperate. It is a shame when a website is started by morons whom have no idea about anything."
I have encountered doctors who will not use Versed on patients nor will they have it used on them. I will not undertake a procedure without discussion with my primary doctor and doing some homework. Funny how some of you people call us ignorant and say that we should get informed while others bash us when we make the effort to become informed.
"With the mentality you present then you could say that the anesthesia provider slipped you narcotics without your permission because I can tell you Fentanyl was given to you in the O.R. "
I had Fentanyl because we discussed it in advance and they told me when I was getting it. Don't bash Fentanyl, it does the job.
"It is people like you that makes Anesthesia hard simply because you think you no more! If you have questions about what they were giving you in your iv you could have said something before it was given."
No, I think you guys know more. My complaint is that my provider was sneaky about using Versed and also this appears to happen often.
I have been quite happy with my surgeons and anesthesia providers. Don't construe me as bashing all doctors and all of anesthesia because I had one bad experience - with one drug in particular that seems to uniquely draw complaints.
I do not think that people in general should fear their surgery or their anesthesia. I do think patients should have a good primary doctor behind them and they should do some research before jumping into anything. When I was growing up, my family was friends with a lot of medical professionals. We all had our share of procedures. We asked a lot of questions and when there was a lack of consensus, we continued our research until we felt confident with the direction we were choosing.
And yeah, we know life isn't perfect. Competent, well meaning doctors can run into bad luck - and it's not their fault - so don't even go there.
OK, I have a lot of trouble believing that any medical professional, if given a patient who had a previous serious adverse reaction to "Medication X", would say, "Just do what your (sic) and cooperate" in an elective procedure when there were alternative medications.
I can understand if it were an emergency, AND there was no alternative, AND my Doctor (not nurse, CRNA, PA, CNA) decided that the benefit from the medication outweighed the adverse reaction, then yes, give me Medication X, and be prepared to deal with the consequences.
But if you are a medical professional and really don't agree with the above statements, get ready, because a tsunami is coming and you are going to get washed out to sea.
I was given versed after a c-section in 2004. I have happy memories of the actual c-section, but the moment my son was out I was very confused and didn't know what I was saying. i do know that I asked about 5 times "what was that drug that you just gave me"? I have a high tolerance to pain medication, so I can't hold the morphine and percocet responsible for the 3 day haze I was in after my surgery. I am having another c-section next April and I am going to strongly request to not be given this drug. I would like to be aware and alert during the first few days of my little one's life....unlike the last time.
There is no point in talking to most CRNA's. They are so puffed up with their own self importance, and so full of themselves that it is like talking to a wall. The wall is probably marginally more responsive. I apologise to the decent CRNA's, (and Anesthesiologists) but you have a very real problem in your ranks. Instead of having reasoned conversations they resort to petty name-calling and snippiness. We just have to insist on a REAL doctor, even though some of us have had an anesthesiologist. That is YOUR right as a patient. It won't cost any more than having the nasty little nurse. The anonymous post by the last "medical genius" should also show that we shouldn't be polite, OR "do as we are told." Don't make their job easy. Demand, complain, object, etc. Read that damn informed consent (for an hour or more if needed) or better yet, pay the consultation fee for a lawyer to go over it ahead of time and strike a bunch of stuff. Don't let them trick you or badger you into signing it. They refuse (most of them) to mention AMNESIA or OBEDIENCE as the desired effects of this Versed, or in many cases even admit that they are going to use it. Look the hospital check-in document over as well. Take that with you to the lawyer! You don't have to allow student nurses OR student doctors to practice on you! You don't have to allow them to play with your DNA, or any of the other stuff they may sneak into that document. Don't think it doesn't apply to you so it doesn't matter!!! It just may, if they get you to sign it. Strike it out! No more Doctor can decide anything! No permission to do general anesthetic, just because you need stitches or something. The law requires that you be treated anyway. They can't just throw you out for objecting to some of their "permissions." (If you are looking at the "informed consent," know that they can do almost all of it without sedation, and sedation can be an option if you decide later in the procedure that you would like it. Don't sign it ahead of time if this is your desired course of action. As long as you are NOT sedated, you can sign for it when and if it becomes necessary. If you sign for sedation ahead of time you are going to get it!) KNOW THE LAW! The hospital MUST supply you with relevent documents. It cannot withhold your information, that's the law. If its too late for that, get your patient records! All of them. You will need these documents to complain to the proper authorities. Get hold of your STATE SENATORS and CONGRESSMEN! There is a "committee" on health care in your state capitol. Find out who's on it and call their office! A big talking point is the unecessary expense associated with health care because of frivolous "sedation." Write to them and complain! Call their office on the phone! Demand that they bring down health care costs by banning sedation except in exceptional cases. The medical people can make up something if their patient needs this! Talk about the enormous drain in health care dollars for state agencies health care benefits, insurance premiums for us regular folks and welfare cases by hospitals and clinics using the unecessary sedation strategy! Everybody is talking about health care costs RIGHT NOW! Tell them that our health care professionals are violating all kinds of laws pertaining to informed consent and demand that they make these laws with harsher penalties. We have a lot of Democrats in office right now and they are historically more responsive to us, rather than big pharma and the doctors. These arrogant medical people say that we are "apathetic" about our care, that we are stupid and don't have the rights that we have. Let's exercise those rights! Take them to small claims court and show the judge that they didn't mention amnesia in the informed consent and that they breached their fiduciary duty by injecting you with a drug that had not been properly explained. Do this fast, as soon as you get out of the hospital. You will have to check in your state how long you have to sue them, or show "cause of action." There is such a thing as a tort claim. That means that since the hospital didn't have your full "informed" consent, that they ASSAULTED you resulting in grievous bodily harm. Have the hospital investigated by the appropriate agencies. Have the CRNA (if that's who drugged you)investigated by your state nursing board. File those complaints, even years later. You can claim "discovery." Even if they dismiss the complaint, maybe the next person will be more successful. If they find wrong doing, that's when you can get a lawyer. There are lots of good things you can do without a lawyer. Get hold of the JCAHO at www.jointcommission.org and file with them. File a complaint with the FDA here www.fda.gov/opacom/backgrounders/complain FIGHT BACK! Write letters to the editor! You can do this online, but not anonymously. You can request that your name not be used. Talk to everybody you know about what happened. Call your insurance carrier and ask that they revisit their Midazolam sedation payment schedule. Describe how you were treated and remind tham of how much money this costs. They are probably really interested in docking payments for certain things, like unecessary sedation. Insurance companies are balking at propofol, so maybe they should be balking at Versed as well. Show everybody the web-sites like allnurses.com and nurse-anesthesia.org Show them how we are viewed and treated! My Democrat congresswoman was SHOCKED at what she read and there's lots more now! Call Hillary's office @(202) 224-4451and Obama's office @(202) 224-2854in particular. These elected officials are planning on doing something about healthcare! Tell them how much the sedation has cost you in real dollars from your hospital bills and other costs like therapy or drugs that you have had to have since the Versed, if applicable. Remember the medical field can't PROVE that the sedation wasn't the culprit, nor can we PROVE that it was, so that's a stalemate. However we CAN prove that sedation "therapy" adds a huge amount to the cost of our health care. Please don't just be a victim. Yes, we can stop them from abusing us! I'm not a lawyer or a medical person and this cannot be construed as medical or legal advice. Also please note that I am specifically speaking of planned medical procedures, not emergency treatment!
so quick to accuse. Doctors are, for the most part, small business owners. Put yourself in our shoes. If you do a procedure and a patient experiences pain, that patient will tell everyone they know to stay away from that doctor. That is loss of profit and eventually closure of business. I do not agree with anyone not being told what they are given, however in a litigious society such as ours, I think there needs to be more understanding from patients. The only thing the doctor is trying to hide from you is discomfort.
You don't understand the main complaints here because you are not one of the abusers.
I was mostly OK with the medical community until I was maneuvered into having Versed - a drug I would have refused if it were properly explained to me and one which caused an adverse reaction in me.
You are correct - an honest Doc is trying to keep me comfortable.
But the previous post is correct, there seems to be a widespread pattern of bad attitude from a lot of anesthesia providers and too much drive to use this drug, typically in a forceful and/or dishonest way.
There will probably always be bad apples. I have a friend who needed a local for some stitches in her hand. The local obviously was not working because when the stitching began, the area was not numb. When my friend yelped, she was told she was a wimp.
This is just a single, short story, but this kind of thing does happen and people need to be aware of it.
Please believe me - I detest the whole "Lawyer thing" and I will not support frivolous, dishonest lawsuits.
I am scheduled for a Colonoscopy in 10 days, last week at the consultation with Dr. he spoke of "Twilight Sleep" and how great it is. Just the smile on his face made me do some research on my own.I am scheduled for the pre-op on this Thursday and am looking for input on any questions that I should ask at this time.
The only reason I am having this procedure is my age (51), overall in good health and no family history of any cancer problems.
The thought of drug induced amnesia bothers me and in speaking to friends that have undergone this and I mention amnesia they have no clue, they thought that they were "asleep" the whole time.
I want to have the colonoscopy but just the sneaky way that it is presented makes me nervous.
Thanks for this site and any help you can give.
I used to detest the whole lawyer thing, but it seems like the more you protect our medical people, the more they digress from "patient" care. If lawyers are what keeps the bad actors in line, then we have to have them. We can't put medical people in jail, we can't fine them for doing things we don't want, so what do we do? We actually have to pay them for their mistakes! I am a very difficult patient, but I have never had this attitude before. It seems to have started with the advent of the amnesia drug Versed. Patient care was dramatically different from the time I had my last surgery in 1987, until the time I had the surgery in 2006. 3 things were notably different; CRNA nurses are a new thing to me. I believed my anesthetist was a Doctor and he didn't disabuse me of that idea. This whole amnesia is anesthesia is new. The attitude in the medical staff has changed as well, and not for the better. They don't explain anything, try to give you a "gotcha" with the informed consent, and are impervious to patient suffering. I am unimpressed with the new style medicine as practiced in the U.S. today. There are some good ones, but as one person said "do they wear a different color smock?" We have no way of knowing, before it's too late!
For John M, specifically. Call your Doctor's office and find out from his nurse or whatever if they will do the procedure without Versed/Midazolam. Be very specific and get a specific answer. That will give you a starting point. I haven't heard too many bad things about Propofol which supposedly causes amnesia, but I think it really makes you sleep... You need to ask about this drug too, find out if they have it, and if your insurance will cover it. As the CRNA's keep telling us millions of people get Versed every day, just keep in mind the risk that you may be the one who doesn't tolerate it. By the way "twilight sleep" is a red flag term. Don't trust anybody who uses this phrase if they are talking about Versed...
Some of us have researched unsedated colonoscopy and it appears that most people are fine with it.
I hate to burst your bubble, but you may have to find someone else to do the work for you. I'll bet if you ask this guy to do it unsedated he will explode.
Tell him you know what Versed is and it is a deal breaker. Have him sign a form saying he will not use it.
Many folks have been happy with just Demerol or Fentanyl. See if this works for him.
Tim and Jackie,
Thanks for the quick responce. No bubbles to be burst here. Having this test done on a referal from my PCP.
With a little bit of research I can say that Versed is a deal breaker.
Thursday might be interesting.
Thanks again and I will keep you informed.
" If you do a procedure and a patient experiences pain, that patient will tell everyone they know to stay away from that doctor."
Anonymous Doctor, If you do a procedure using VERSED without explaining it, and the patient feels (as most of us here) that he was "tricked" when he finds out about it later, I GUARANTEE he will never go back to that doctor again, and find it hard to trust ANY doctor again !
" The only thing the doctor is trying to hide from you is discomfort."
Personally, I would have more respect for a doctor who is honest with me about the discomfort than one who hides it.
For John M.
I have quite a number of links to journal articles where colonoscopy and sedation was evaluated. In most cases, only the abstract can be read but they typically provide the conclusion of the study. I'd be glad to email them to you. The links frequently seem to get truncated if I try to post them here.
I had a bad experience with Versed so I am not un-biased but the sense I get from the research I've done is that sedation is almost never necessary during colonoscopy but is done to reduce procedure time and for the convenience of the doctor. Send an email to mcg404@gmail.com and i'll forward them to you.
Personally I have a problem with a Doctor trying to "hide" anything from me. Anybody, if they are competent, and probably most children after age 5 or so, is going to know that some procedures are painful. Where's the problem with remembering it was uncomfortable? I can see how doctors might want to pretend that things are painless, but we do have medication specific to pain. I like Fentanyl! The idea that I may be screaming and writhing in pain and my care givers are laughing (and refusing to stop) because they *hope* I won't remember it is a lot more worrisome than just dealing with it like an adult... Dialogue between patient and care giver is absolutely CRUCIAL to having happy patients. The main reason doctors are sued according ot one insurance outfit is surprise! Here is the link showing that, (good reading) from The Doctors Company a medical malpractice insurance outfit. http://www.thedoctors.com/KnowledgeCenter/PatientSafety/articles/CON_ID_000337 Here's another good web site for you doctor or CRNA types, it talks about communication being the cause for lawsuits. http://www.psqh.com/novdec05/what-if.html
Just got back from my pre-op for my upcoming procedure. When it got around to the anesthesia I asked if Versed was used and if so administered by who. The surgical nurse admitted that in the past Versed had been used and it was administered by a CRNA, evidently the hospital found that the combination was causing "problems" so that now anesthesia is handled by an anesthesiologist and I would have to address any concerns with them.
The odyssey continuies.....
Well it's over, They used Propoful on me and I was out. Best of luck to all that follow.
John M.
I was wondering if when you say you were "out" do you think you were asleep or was it amnesia? Propofol has a nickname of "milk of amnesia". I had very serious problems because of the amnesia caused by Versed being used on me during a colonoscopy. I felt that my safety had been seriously compromised by my caregivers and I don't ever want that to happen again. Maybe you could tell us in more detail what your experience was like and how you were treated by your care givers.
In 2004 I was diagnosised with an annular pancreas. I had one EGD before my diagnosis and quite a bit more afterwords, including an ERCP. I've had around 5 surgeries since 2004. I'd say I've had Versed about 15 times. And I'll probably have it a few more times before everything is said and done. Only once did I wake up and then that lasted about 10 seconds before I was out again. I guess I am one of the lucky ones who hasn't had any problems.
Ken,
I know that they call propofol "milk of amnesia" but I understand they always use it with the intent of inducing unconsciousness. When you get the white stuff you will not be talking to the docs during the procedure - you will be out.
I've heard of propofol being used as part of "conscious sedation" but I've also heard that if you don't get enough to fall asleep, it's not enough period. I asked the anesthesiologist about it just before going in to have my umbilical hernia repaired and he said if I wanted to be awake I should not have it; if I got it I would be asleep.
If I know I need to be put out for a procedure I can accept the white stuff to do the job just not the Versed for preop sedation.
Hello you cry babies.....
I had surgery in 2004 for endometrial cancer. I "asked" my anesthesiologist to give me something to calm me down and because I already had the needle in my hand, she gave me an injection. The next thing I knew, I was in my room.
I asked my Doctor "did you talk to me when I was in surgery" and he said, "yes, but you didn't answer me."
If you guys are curious about what's given to you ASK what is being given to you, before, rather than later.
I did my homework before I went to the hospital. I knew the procedure and what was to be given to me.
Versed is very popular because of not remembering.
Quit crying and grow up. You didn't do your part in the investigative period.
We were lied to Linda. We expected to be told the truth and treated like adults. It looks like you had an ethical medical team. I had no reason to research beforehand because I "knew" that we were NOT going to be using drugs. So much for that. If you had read our complaints, not one of us was told the truth about Versed, some of us weren't even told that we would be getting a drug at all. All of us were lied to. Personally I think that people who need amnesia just to get through a minor surgical event are the crybabies. I will never understand why you would want to be awake but have amnesia. What is it sooo scary that you need amnesia? Doesn't that sound like a big baby to you? I think it is very unfair of you to decide that because YOU weren't lied to, You agreed to amnesia, and YOU can't handle medical procedures, that the rest of us are "crybabies." Also I might point out that medical personnel are more than happy to give Versed to the point that they will sneak it into the IV. You played right into their hands. You would have gotten it anyway, so I'm glad you wanted it. I say "no thanks" to this kind of drug and that's where the problem starts...
Linda opines:
"If you guys are curious about what's given to you ASK what is being given to you, before, rather than later."
and
"You didn't do your part in the investigative period."
Linda,
Ironically, YOU have not done your homework - before slamming a group of people who correctly feel that they are the injured party.
Many of us asked and asked, but were never told of the Versed.
Also, one purpose of this blog is to warn people that they will be LIED to and the drug is often PUSHED on people.
More than once patients have been tricked by a doc who uses "Midazolam" when the patient refuses "Versed".
Many of these anesthesia people are not happy until they have the Versed in you - whether you want it or not.
Hello folks,
I wrote a blurb a few days ago about my comments on this drug, however, the more I thought about it, I would like to give a more professional opinion about Versed.
In any operation, anesthesia is a risk, that's why patients are asked to sign a "waiver" (so to speak) relieving the hospital, physicians and other technicians if something goes wrong during, or after, the operation. Like passing on, or waking up during the procedure, or a lot of other things that can happen during surgery.
It is most important, if you are scheduled for surgery, to discuss with your Doctor the type of anesthesia the Dr. will be using. It would behoove you to ask these questions before the surgery so you can look up the drugs you will be given, including the risks that go along with it.
When I had Cancer surgery in 2004, I told my cousin I was petrified and she asked why. I said, "I'm afraid I won't wake up," and she bounced back with "You won't know it." She had a dark side!
A great percentage of people scheduled for surgery are concerned about the same thing. Not waking up, but today, there are drugs to wake you up if something should go wrong. Surgery today has come a long way, since even 1950, and has continuously improved throughout the years.
Versed is a drug that will help you forget what transpired during the surgical procedure. When I was given this drug I simply asked for something to relax me. The next thing I knew, I was in my room ready for dinner. I didn't remember helping to transfer myself with the nurses to the operating table, nor did I remember the recovery room. I actually liked what had taken place. I didn't remember anything.
Some people don't respond as I did and they are within their rights to ask questions, and know what is being injected into their bodies.
The key to any anesthesia is to ask questions, look it up on the internet. Know what's going to take place so that if you don't like what you hear or see, you can do something about it.
I apologize if I offended anyone on this site.
And something else you all should be aware of. The Anesthesiologist (M.D.) "oversees" the Nurse Anesthetists and tells them how much sedation you should have. Seldom does the M.D. physically do the procedure.
How's that for confidence?
I am close friends with a N.A. who tells me "they" are the ones who put you to sleep and wake you up.
Now, you have something else to think about. Check it out.
Ever think that you are freaks wanting to know and see and be a part of things that physicians are ethically and morally trying to keep you from experiencing that could be traumatizing? They do have protocol-- ie. drapes when doing c-sections. If they need you awake for your cooperation they will do so- if there is a chance that you are going to freak and move and muck up their procedure they can't be having that for the patient's own benefit. Honestly, take your psych probs to a shrink, they are not the physicians problem.
Its unethical AND immoral to lie to patients about Versed. Sorry, no matter what kind of spin you want to put on it, really, that's what it boils down to. It has absolutely nothing to do with patients being freaks at all, it has to do with control freak nurses and people like you. Look how mad you are that we object to this one drug! Get a grip.
Hi Tim,
I think it might be good to post on the home page for this site that the purpose of it is a support group for people who have been harmed, not really a forum for alternate opinions.
I don't think what some of the people who are posting negative opinions of us realize that they are doing the equivalent of storming into an AA meeting and telling the people there that they are all drunks and losers.
-M
"Honestly, take your psych probs to a shrink, they are not the physicians problem."
You have just confirmed what I suspected...SOME doctors do not care about the patient's mental state after a procedure or surgery, as long as there were no PHYSICAL complications.
You REALLY don't get it. I am not a "freak," I just consider a doctor's HONESTY every bit as important as his competency. WHY WHY WHY is Versed not properly explained to the patient ? Answer: Because it's for the doctor's benefit, not the patient's.
Using Really's logic, I am curious why Versed is not always given for childbirth? Talk about something that is considered the most painful and scary "procedures" a woman could ever go through.
Wouldn't all mothers be better off being given Versed at the start of labor, with repeat doses every five minutes until they were safely in their hospital rooms with the baby down the hall in the nursery?
I mean, who would want to remember that pain! Oh, and by the way, it's a boy!
It is so tedious to constantly have to deflect criticism because of this drug. If you don't like it you are a freak. Yawn... Please read the entire web site, extrapolate what the problem is and then make an informed comment. These rants from obviously medical people are boring. We already know that you love this stuff. We are all the living proof of that! We are questioning YOUR pathology in wanting us all to have this poison, which is shown to cause anxiety problems in healthy people. If I had to make a snap diagnosis like medical people are making about us, I would opine that anesthesia providers are populated to any uncanny degree by people suffering from "Narcissistic Personality Disorder." Look it up. Something is wrong with them so instead of becoming serial killers and thugs, they just do this in a hospital where they can get away with knocking people out. Slight exageration, but this is the high regard I hold anesthesia providers in since my fiasco. Keep at it guys! Every time one of you posts an example of your mental disorder it helps prove my position.
I just had on three separate occasions Epidural Steroid Injections on my back, today was my third and final one.
A history on my experience with HUGE needles in my back. Back in 2000 I had the bad fortune of getting viral meningitis, at the age of 35 (meningitis does not discriminate based on age, not just teens and young adults get it) But with a massive headache which i cant even begin to explain how bad it was I went by ambulance to the hospital after trying to drive myself but seeing 2 of everything when in truth there was actually just one of things i saw. I found some sense through all the pain and drove the one block back home and called 911. I went to the ER and as my luck would have it I happen to tell the EMS crew to take me to a hospital that has med students. Normally I am all for med students and them learning but this one day I really didn't care one way or the other as long as the person could sign for a huge morphine or Demerol IV. Of course they rule out a stroke first. Then the med student tells the attending he wasn't to do a spinal tap. So begins my next hour of the most living hell a person could go through. I was stuck 15 times by this idiot student and not once did the attending take over after seeing me suffering as bad as I was..Not only was that huge needle going in back over and over and over my head was throbbing so bad I wished i could die...I even prayed to die that day. Finally I reached around and grabbed the med students hand and told him "IF YOU TOUCH ME ONE MORE GOD DAMN TIME I WILL HAVE YOU ARRESTED FOR ASSAULT NOW GET YOUR FUCKING HANDS OFF OF ME AND SHAME ON YOU "TEACHER" FOR ENCOURAGING THIS STUPID FUCK FOR STICKING ME THIS MUCH"! they thought for one moment they were smarter than me but i reminded both of them that once a patient tells you to stop and if medical personnel continues to do what the patient just told them to stop doing in the eyes of the law it becomes assault. I even managed to reach for a phone beside the bed and picked it up and dialed 911 to show how serious I was. It must have upset the hospital operator when i asked for a outside line to dial 911 because the next thing I know the Hospital administrator and Chief of Staff were standing in my room, and directing both idiots out to the hallway. Both of my saviors informed both the idiots that I could have them arrested if they did not cease their inhumane treatment and how dare they do such a thing to a patient. IT was not a gentle, quiet conversation they were having with these two fools either.
The chief of staff took over my care from that point on (this is no small town hospital either it is a major hospital in a major city which cares for a former president and his wife when they need care. It is also a hospital that also is the hospital that is the hospital that one of the worlds most famous heart surgeons uses. I am no one famous and I am sure not "rich" by any standards. So to have the chief step in and take over my care tells me that the two idiots in the ER really screwed up.
But the chief sent me to radiology where the radiologist was about the kindest and most wonderful man I have ever met in my life and he knocked me out with Versed and Fentanyl and did the tap with Fluoroscope as to not make it any worse, he did it in one shot from what i was told by my then husband, i made him stay to watch to make sure the other two idiots did not wander into the room. Well I ended up in ICU for days and after 2 days headache was 1000% better but oh my GOD the back ache i had and to this day it still hurts......hence the epidural steroid injections in my back...If i would have had half a mind i would have sued that idiot doctor that did this to me
I told my doc i wanted the ESI done to help with the pain in my back. He does the procedure at a outpatient day surgery center which lead me to believe i would be asleep for the procedure, WRONG. this doctor does not normally do consciousness-sedation, (which will make most of you people happy.) I cant even begin to explain how that stressed me out to think of being awake for that. The big needles in my back...i don't even know how to explain that made me feel to know i would be awake for that. finally I went to my docs office and asked for his nurse and explained to her how upset that made me. After talking to her she told me first that I most likely have PTSD from the incident in the ER, hell i agree I more than likely do have ptsd. To have someone repeatedly stick ya in the back time after time after time with a huge needle (please have a look at what was stuck in my back 15 times WHILE I WAS AWAKE http://www.fotosearch.com/LIF115/sa404029/) and then for that "dr" to have a spear in his hands sticking and sticking and sticking while asking someone else what to do and cry and whine as if it was him being stuck. Its no damn wonder i have PTSD. BUT after talking to my now, doctors nurse and thank God they have understanding and compassion they arranged for me to have Versed and fentanyl for the procedures. I cant tell you how stressed i was at the OP (Out Patient) center until I seen the Nurse Anesthetist come at me with the syringe. As soon as she put it in my IV and i felt the med work I SMILED AND SAID GOOD NIGHT and what a great nurse cocktail she makes and out i was. I woke up thankful for versed. very thankful.
You guys say you welcome all opinions on here, i don't think you do though, i am sure this will be deleted because it is not you guys opinion. I thank God for VERSED. I wished back in 2000 it would have been used on me 2 hour sooner than it was. I have PTSD but not from the drug but from a lack of the drug. If you was to ever go through such a ordeal you would have a whole new opinion of Versed. Don't even pretend to know what i went through you cant know unless you have been stuck in the back with a huge needle 15 times in one hours time hell even 2 hours time would not be good......even 24 would not be good. If the drug doesn't work on some..that's too bad, i mean it really is to bad. I cant imagine anyone wanting to remember a surgery or procedure. You cant imagine the trauma you would go through if you was wide awake and felt all the pain of a procedure. I had a hysterectomy back in 93 and woke up during my surgery. I could not move or talk but i remember my stomach burning and pain. I remember my doctor talking about going to Lake Tahoe for Christmas holiday. And the items his wife was packing up to take with them that he felt wasn't necessary for a 4 day trip. there were other little tid bits of other conversations i heard, one was one of the nurses in the or talking about a vacation from hell they had a few years back. a few days later when my doctor made his daily visit to me i asked him, Are you going to lake Tahoe in a couple of days? he looked at me odd and said yes, thinking one of the nurses on the floor told me. then i told him about his wife taking to much stuff then i told him about a nurse in the or and her bad vacation.......talk about shock he was that.......a few hours late the Anesthesiologist came in to see me and ask me questions. They figured i was aware of things for about 30 minutes from all the conversations that they had that i recalled. No Dr or Anesthesiologist wants their patient aware during a surgery and such a major surgery.
If this is something you guys would rather remember, then knock your lights out. Just don't complain when you suffer. And don't cry fowl after and try to sue the doctor, hospital.....I would have had good reasons to sue two different doctor for two incidents.....but i didn't...and it is not for sympathy for them either. the idiots with the spinal tap are idiots and they were reprimanded by the administration in a hallway in the open in the ER. Not good business on the management part but good business for me to see it happen to them.
I don't understand why someone would want to be awake for s a painful procedure or operation. That's barbaric.
I thank God for versed. Don't try to put your twist on my story and have some theory of how versed was the problem.....clearly a lack of versed was the problem. I wish i could forget what happened to me. Drugs have different reactions on different people and no doctor is to blame for that. Drugs and food you never know if you will have a reaction to them until you ingest them....If you allergic to seafood who will you blame, the fish in the ocean?, the fisherman? No one is to blame for that nor is a bad reaction to a drug, doctors are doctors not fortune tellers, they have no way of knowing someone is going to have a reaction to a drug, i doubt they would give a drug to someone they knew was going to have a bad reaction to it, with everyone being lawsuit happy now days...........i dont think so.... if you people want to suffer miserable pain that comes from a procedure dont be mad at the doctor for hurting like hell when its all over with it was your choice, remember. and procedure are much easier if you out for them, a doctor needs a person totally relaxed to work on not someone who is nervous and moving around, and you will be nervous and your all tensed up and that makes things more difficult for the doctor, i want my doctor to have a easy time working on me.........anything to make his job better i am for. after all it is my body a doc is working on I know during me ESI's i would have been a nightmare for my doctor if i was awake........he would have told them to knock me out, the 30 minutes it took him would have been hours if i was awake........
this is one person who thinks versed is great.......no one can convince me other wise...
I know not all doctors are good doctors, believe me i know first hand some realy suck and should not even be allowed to work in a shoe hospital, much less on humans or animals. I am more leary of the doctor who wont knock me out when they want to do somethimg to me that will hurt like hell. Had my doctor not lisen to me i would have never agreed to the ESI's NEVER...i wont do that to myself, i forbid anyone to do something to me that will put me through that hell again. Forgetting is a great thing for me, there are things i would love to forget and horrid medical procedure/surgery being the top of the list of things i want to forget. if you people are complaining about not remembering a very painful procedure that pretty strange to me, why would you want to remember that? apparently you have never lived through such pain in your life to know enough to know that you dont want to remember it....I dont get why anyone would want to know about that type of pain when you dont have to......my final statement here.....
Anesthesiologist and Nurse Anesthetist, I LOVE YOU GUYS YOU DO GREAT WORK AND THANK YOU! I would be one sick and hurting person if it wasnt for people like you.....thank you...
signed,
a grateful patient
PeeJay said...
I underwent a colonoscopy and woke up during the procedure. I mean I was awake.
I was screaming for them to stop and even tried to crawl out of the gurney.
I was held down and the procedure was done anyway. I feel like I have been sodomized. I feel traumatize. I feel like a rape victim. I feel shame.
The doctor left immediately after the procedure and didn't say a word to me. I wonder why? Maybe because she became angry at my screaming and battered me in the thigh to make me spread my legs further?
I called her office and said she
-----------------------------------
what did you think a colonoscopy was? a hand holding koom bi ya session? now you want to sue? give me a break.....and for you people to act as if this person was abused is ridiculous. i am betting the doctor was mad because this person acted like an idiot and was just looking for someone to sue.
Donna, what it comes down to is that you have your reality, based on your own direct life experience, and other people have their respective realities, based on their life experiences. What remains unclear about your above two posts is where you get the authority to make derisive comments about other people's impressions of their own life experiences? Not being those other people, you are completely unqualified to do so. It would be like me telling you that you're an emotionally weak person because you couldn't handle a headache. Since I'm a respectful person, however, I would never do such a thing. Plus, I would be totally unable to, because I obviously did not experience your headache. Why, then, is it so important for you to ridicule other people's suffering? You should realize that your choice to do so serves more to reveal aspects of your character (or lack thereof), than it does to refute the validity of any of the experiences posted about here.
I have a question Donna... Would you really rather have had Versed, had the idiot at the hospital continue for several more botched attempts at getting the damn needle in your back, with you screaming, and been unable to stop them OR call the cops? Would you like to wake up paralyzed or something without knowing WTF just happened? That is what you are suggesting that you would have preferred. Just checking...
you wannt to tell me what a peson thought a colonoscopy was then? surely this person knew because that borders on the line of just being stupid to act as if he/she didnt know......i have had a colonoscopy while awake.......not a pleasant experience by any means but nothing came as a shock to me either, i didnt think the doctor was there to just hang out with me and bill me a few grand for his company....and for others....how the hell would they know what a painful expeirence a surgery is if they are asleep? they have no clue because they are out. to me it sounds like people here want to be awake for things like that which is just ridiculous. and you can form any opinion you want about me i dont really give a rats ass considering the source....some bleeding heart who just wants to play into sympathy for nonsense so you people can have something to complain about is all this boils down to.....people like you just want to whine and cry about everything.......then sue doctors or threaten to and then you complain about medical care being so expensive and doctors being pain in the asses with everything...one with sue happy people like you guys they have to raise their rates to pay for their insurances.....and they have to be somewhat jerks because there is no telling what idiot is going to drag them into court over nonsense and waste his time, the courts time and the tax payers time and money to pay a judge to sit and listen to all that nonsense.....not to mention all the people that work in the court room and the clerks through out the court house that handle all the paper work.......now where is i should care about your opinion of my headache? i dont care.....again considering the source a bunch of bleeding heart sue happy people....who should get jobs and lifes instead of looking for reasons to sue a doctor......
Temper temper. YOU are the whiner Donna. Poor baby, so much pain. You are going to get about as much sympathy as you deserve here dear. Don't try to dictate YOUR preferences to us. GROW UP!
All these precious Doctors have to do is FOLLOW THE LAW as it pertains to informed consent... The law states that we as patients get to pick and choose what things are done to us. The law requires that drugs and treatments be explained to us FULLY which seems to be a big problem with medical people. Deceit and subterfuge is used to get that Versed into patients without "informed" consent. If they don't want to do it OUR way, then they have every right to refuse treatment. Versed is NOT necessary for most A-D-U-L-T-S! Versed has no pain killing properties and is a degrading and humiliating experience even without experiencing the bad reaction to it. They do have pain medication as you should know. We are not complaining about feeling pain. We are complaining about the use of Versed instead of proper pain relief. Without Versed you can request and receive pain relief medication. This is not an option if you are sedated. You describe a good outcome without Versed. You can't answer why you would have wanted to have Versed for amnesia and still be subjected to the sub standard medical care you describe. If you had Versed and it didn't work, you would have been forced to endure your course of treatment at the hands of an idiot, as YOU have described! You can't see how your own words are an example of why not to have Versed? Call 911? Do you really think that you would have been anywhere near that phone if you were sedated? You really think they would have given a "rat's ass" about your suffering if you had Versed? You live in a dream world.
You genius's that are so willing to just run your mouth under anonymous .......tell me this...how the hell would you know the different between a doctor doing what he/she is suppose to do and what would be wrong? when did you go to medical school for decades to learn so much or how is it that you know so much to tell the doctor what he.she is doing is wrong? and amnesia, your all off your rockers....its not amnesia you should be so concerned with it is your awakening stupidity that would concerm me....the reason a good doctor wants pateins like you guys OUT is so he is not standing there explaining his entire years of school to you an untrained patient who thinks they need to be awake to keep an eye on the doctor.......he more than likely is doing things correct but people like you (sue happy) get the notion in your heads he is not doing thing correct and you wouldnt shut up and the entire time.......i used to think versed was for the patients comfort, i think now it for the doctors sanity, i just want to know how is you think you would know if a mistake was being made.? I am sure it is NOT years in medical school....let me guess you read some stupid shit on the internet and that makes you a professional, or better yet.....your cousin, best friends brothers mother in law had the same thing done and through all them mouths you heard a rumor on how a procedure should be done.....thats even better than a internet self taught fool. and if you have such doubts about your doctor what the hell are you doing let him operate on you? just looking for someone to sue is what i am thinking. exactly what the hell is wrong with you idiots......i say go ahead and have a operation with no versed..go ahead.......i hope you hurt like hell and i hope you do have every memory of that pain you stupid bastards deserve as much misery in life.......your idiots...your hopeless sue happy idiots......
Hard to believe there is only one person besides me that see's through you people and your crying and whining about versed.
Good point was made though, why would you want to use a doctor whom you dont trust enough to let him put you asleep for a surgery? I dont understand that myself. I think Donna was correct, you people are just looking for someone to sue and to think a whole blog was dedicated to a groupd of lawsuit happy jerks. But please do explain why you would use a doctor that you dont trust enough to use versed for a surgery. I myself dont understand that either. I had a broken femur that was fixed by surgery and as much as it hurt while i was awake i was happy to have a drug that made me forget what the hell was going on....whats to bitch about there? relief? that makes you people sadistic, you peple may enjoy the suffering normal people are not into pain like you people are. that is just sick.......pain medicine alone cant possible take away all the pain of a surgery..there is no way....not possible...if you think there is, then your bigger dumbass's than what the one lady says you all are.....
Donna, you obviously have an ax to grind, so give it a rest. It's kind of amusing that you post under "Anonymous" minutes after your first post today, and say the roughly the same thing all over again, but you change the phrase "sue happy" to "lawsuit happy," as if this would somehow make it believable that you're a different person. You then go on to employ the same poor grammar and overuse of ellipsis points, so if you're going to do that, at least expend the effort to change your writing style.
My guess is that you're probably not even female, and are either a doctor, a CRNA, a defense attorney specializing in medical malpractice, or maybe a sales rep from a pharmaceutical company. The idea that someone could be so insanely angry about other people discussing adverse reactions to a drug, would not make terribly much sense otherwise. Either way, your ego does not seem to be able to tolerate anything but full compliance with your viewpoints. But you have to realize, in life you're occasionally going to come across people who (like myself) don't give a sh*t what you have to say.
Your type is all over the Internet, though. Basically people who start blogger profiles, but don't actually have a blog. The real reason they create a profile is so that they can post opposing (and usually inflammatory) viewpoints on other people's blogs, presumably because it gives them some sick pleasure or feelings of worth. Anyway, do us all a favor and take it elsewhere. For example, why not go on the various CRNA forums and tell them how much you like their brain-disabling drugs? At least that would be a positive act.
Donna please go back under the rock you crawled out of. "Donna" is just as anonymous as anonymous. Your phony blog proves absolutely nothing except that you made one up so that you could come on here and run your ignorant mouth. I too believe that you are a troll, possibly from nurse anesthesia. If you were a real person you wouldn't be foaming at the mouth over the fact that we, on this site, take exception to being blasted with this drug furtively and stealthily. We have had idiosyncratic reactions to it which you seem to admit that drugs can do. However, most of us would have, did, or otherwise declined this poison when (if it was even mentioned) it was offered, so not only have we been abused by being given this drug without warning, we have also had a bad reaction to it. Doctors are required by law to explain the procedures to the patient. What part of that do you not understand? It is MY RIGHT to have this explaination in as much depth as I require! Yes I think Docs have gotten lazy and arrogant since they started this Versed craze, just because it's easier not to have to explain anything until afterward when its really too late. I have ample reason not to trust Docs who rely on amnesia to protect themselves, even if it is just that they hate their patients and want as little to do with them as possible. Sorry you are such a baby about things, but you are more than welcome to request the Versed which they would force on you anyway. The idea that we are all masochists is a very stupid analogy! We want pain medication. We just don't want an amnesia drug instead!
Folks:
I am shutting down this thread -
at the least, I am not retaining any more of "Donna"'s crap.
The only reason I have not deleted it so far is because some of you have posted good retorts. But overall, we are not adding much to the discussion.
Donna is likely a Troll. Do not feed the Troll.
I have stated elsewhere that I oppose unwarranted lawsuits, I have had mostly good doctors and mostly good experiences with the medical world. My complaint is with this one drug, which appears to be a magnet for trouble. I also am here to object to - and let others know - the fact that Versed is commonly forced onto patients and typically is automatically given to people - with no explanation.
Donna:
At the front of this blog are some other links you should check out. For instance, you could try posting your bile on Brad's blog. I hope this suggestion does not offend the owners of the respective sites, but it will be fun watching them shred you.
I had a broken femur too. I had 4 operations on it without Versed, and 2 of them without general anesthetic. Yes it hurt. Would I rather have had Versed because I can't handle much pain? Hell to the NO! Maybe I handle pain better than most... I will happily trade some residual pain for having my brain disconnected. That should be MY choice, not yours and not the Doctor's. Fentanyl is fabulous for relieving pain without undesirable side effects for ME! The word you are looking for isn't sadistic, it's masochistic. Are we supposed to take you seriously when you don't know the difference? So much for your armchair diagnosis, hmmm? Oh and Donna we have been saying for some time that this drug is for the benefit of hospital staff, not the patient. This is hardly the revelation you think it is... If you had read any posts besides PJ's you would know that you are talking about something we have already said. From your original post I see that you were better off without Versed and were able to properly respond to the doctor who was practising on you, the living cadaver. You correctly surmise that the Versed is used for the staff's benefit. Congrats on getting some of it right!
Honestly, I have not read much of the previous string of comments, mainly because I think I have suffered enough pain about this, and don't need to feel attacked by someone who "gets her rocks off" by trying to hurt others.
But I do have to point out that what the people who feel that they have to call us crybabies are engaging in is "blaming the victim"--something has been going on since the beginning of time.
These are the same people who tell rape victims that "they shouldn't have been in that neighborhood after dark". I have even heard said about the people who died on 9/11/2001, "That's what they get for working in the WTC!"
For whatever reason, they want to live in a world where when bad things happen to someone, it has to be his/her own fault. No amount of arguing is going to sway them, since they are the mental equivalent of brick walls.
I had surgery 6 weeks ago. I'm 21 years old. I've never taken any kind of illegal drugs, never drank heavily, and have never taken narcotic painkillers in my life, by choice. I've had multiple previous surgeries, all under general anesthetic.
This last surgery, I assumed, would be like all the rest. Every time I went under general, I was given Valium while in post op, a few minutes before being wheeled into the OR. I could feel the effects immediately, similar to being drunk, but was completely awake and aware of what was going on around me. I would get onto the operating table, joke with the OR staff while I was being strapped down, they would explain to me that they were about to give me the anesthesia, I would say "Gee, that feels funny!" and then be awoken to nurses softly calling my name, telling me everything was okay and that I was in the recovery room. I always wake up calm, and happy. Surgery didn't scare me at all. Until now.
No such luck this time. THIS time, instead of Valium, I was given Versed before surgery without my knowledge. There was some talk of doing my surgery under conscious sedation, but we (my doctor, the anesthesiologist, and I) all agreed before surgery that general anesthesia would be best. I was told I was being given something to "relax me", same as all the other times...so I assumed it was the same. I remember being taken into the OR, and then black. This was the first time I had no recollection of actually being given the anesthesia.
After that, I remember waking up with the airway still in my throat, unable to breathe. I remember being in immense pain, and trying to sit up to catch my breath and call for help, but was unable to move. I vaguely remember people all around me pushing me down and then black.
The next thing I remember is waking up in recovery, with the sense that I was suffocating and about to die. I began desperately gasping for air, crying uncontrollably, and screaming. The only way I can describe it is complete and utter terror and dread. The absolute worst feeling I've ever had in my life. I tried to grab the oxygen mask I saw laying next to me, but couldn't coordinate my movements. A nurse came up and began asking me "What the hell my problem was." I couldn't answer, I didn't know where I was, what was wrong (besides trying to catch my breath) or who I was even. The nurse kept insisting I calm down and shut up, and told me she wouldn't let my boyfriend come back and see me until I stopped crying. I told her I felt like I was about to throw up, and she handed me a bucket. I cried, because every other time I've had surgery, I was given phenergan upon waking, and felt fine after. She asked me why I was still crying, and I told her I was in pain. She told me that she wasn't going to give me any pain meds because they would only make me sicker. I finally calmed my crying, and she let my boyfriend come back to see me. He was immediately enraged, seeing me obviously distressed and crying my eyes out. He's been there for several of my surgeries and knew that wasn't normal for me at all. All I could get out was "Nurse...mean..."
The girl who had been brought into recovery next to me had begun to vomit all over herself, and I began bawling again. The nurse came back and asked my boyfriend if he could figure out what was wrong with me. My boyfriend asked her to close the curtain between us and the patient next to us, and the nurse rolled her eyes and stomped away. She returned with my release papers, and told my boyfriend to get the car. She then literally tore out my IV, pulled me to my feet and took away the bed. I was forced to stand in the middle of the recovery room, less than 15 minutes after I remember waking up from a very traumatic and painful abdominal surgery. She came back with the wheelchair and took me to the car...
That's the last thing I remember until I was home on the bed with my boyfriend talking about why this surgery went so much worse than all my previous ones. It was then that we noticed I was covered in bruises. Legs, arms, and on my left side from knee to waist.
I called my doctor to ask what happened, but the nurse refused to give me any information. I was told I would just have to ask my doctor at my scheduled post-op appointment. In six weeks. I made several complaints about my recovery nurse to the surgery center, politely and calmly. Once I was hung up on.
For the first three weeks after the surgery, I noticed I was forgetting normal things on a regular basis...names of people, phone numbers I've known for years, words that I use regularly...I just could not recall them for the life of me. I started to have incidents where I would suddenly forget where I was, or what was going on for a few minutes at a time. I started having extremely vivid dreams and "daydreams" that turned into hallucinations. I started developing strong obsessions with random things or people that lasted 2-3 days at a time and then waned. I broke down into uncontrollable crying often. I've had a lot of strong anxiety and depression, I haven't had a job, and can't seem to pull myself together enough yet to get one. I haven't gone out of the house much at all. Its all getting much better, but I never connected it all with my surgery until three days ago. I thought I was just totally losing my marbles.
Three days ago, I went to my post-op appointment, not sure exactly what to ask my doctor, but was planning on definitely expressing my concern with the fact that I had such a bad experience, and I wanted to know if he remembered me struggling at all, or if he knew why I had so many bad bruises. He dismissed the entire thing, but did say that I seemed fine when he talked to me in recovery, which I don't remember at all. He did finally mention at the end, after some probing, that I might have been given Versed and that some people might have a bad reaction and that might be what happened.
I left feeling somewhat dissatisfied, but called my mom and told her how it turned out. She seemed disappointed as well, but called me back an hour later and told me she had looked up Versed and that I needed to see what she found.
So here I am.
I'm never, EVER letting anyone give me Versed again.
My main question is: if Versed is a drug given with the sole purpose of amnesia, then why would they give it to me before my general anesthesia? Why do I need to forget if I'm going to be unconscious?
Was I even under general anesthesia at all?
Either I was unknowingly given an unnecessary drug that ended up causing me a lot of pain and confusion, or I was lied to about what kind of anesthesia I'd be/was under.
(I have requested my anesthesia records, which I am impatiently awaiting.)
Why won't anyone tell me if I struggled or not? I know I must have because of the bruises...but what is the deal? What happened? It seriously freaks me out.
Young lady anonymous, your experience parallels so many here! Please do tell us what was in your files. Also of interest is the "informed" consent you signed. Any mention of this secret weapon they call Versed in it?
Dear Anonymous,
I would suggest that you follow up with your primary care doctor or some other doctor you feel you can trust. You have a right to your medical records from the procedure, including the anesthesia, but you may have better luck getting them if you request them through another doctor.
Also, you should check if the hospital where you had the surgery has any sort of patient relations or patient advocacy office and contact them. What happened to you should be reported, and the doctor that did the surgery doesn't sound like he is going to assist you with that.
From reading your post, it sounds like what happened to you was very traumatic, and you need to take steps to care for yourself in that regard. It is ok to seek help, starting with a doctor you think you can trust.
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