Thursday, December 15, 2005

Introduction

Why Flag Versed (Midazolam) ?

Here is a list of the complaints about Versed we commonly encounter:

* Too often, the drug is used in a sneaky or furtive manner. Every manner of lying, cheating and BS-ing has been reported by people who unwittingly received this drug. Knowledgeable people, including medical people, have been given Versed after clearly refusing it.

* Versed is NOT a pain medication. The main effects are AMNESIA and patient compliance. Many patients feel they were mishandled, given inadequate pain management, or both. The impression is that the medical staff tries to hide behind the amnesia the patient is expected to have.

* Paradoxical reactions including anxiety, delirium and aggression. This includes patients attacking or trying to leave. They lose touch with reality, not knowing where they are or what is really occurring.

* Some patients experienced a distorted, nightmarish version of their procedure accompanied by feelings of abandonment and panic. This is often accompanied by the next item:

* A kind of sleep paralysis - patient is aware but cannot move and cannot communicate.

* Amnesia did NOT take place for some patients. Patients recall a bad experience!

* Some patients report a "creepy obedience" overcoming them.

* PTSD. Many patients report symptoms of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder after having this drug.

* Weird panic or anxiety episodes ("flashbacks") for some time (weeks, months, years) post-op.

* Long term memory disruption. Memories formed prior to the use of Versed are lost. Some people are unable to retain new information or complete tasks.


What is Versed?

Versed (Midazolam) is a sedative that causes amnesia. It is commonly administered in combination with anesthesia before and during surgery. It is also commonly used for minor procedures like colonoscopies so that patients won't remember pain and discomfort. However, that does not mean that those sensations will not be experienced.

Why be concerned about Versed?

If you are a person who wishes to be involved in your medical care, want to interact with your treatment providers, and want to be as aware and alert as possible during procedures, then you will want to be aware of this commonly-used drug.

How would you feel if you were given a drug, without your knowledge, that wiped out any memory of events that occurred over a period of hours?

A person who is under the influence of Versed can function, and can even carry on a conversation, but will remember nothing once the drug wears off. The use of Versed can open the door to abuse. If there is mishandling of the patient during procedures the patient will have no memory.

We are not saying that people should never be anesthetized, or that sedation should never be an option, but rather that:

* One should be given a complete description of what is going to be done to them. If Versed (conscious sedation) is to be used, the patient should be aware of the amnesia that will result.
* When possible, you should have a choice about being awake for any procedure or part thereof. We take exception to being denied a choice in those cases where one exists. One reason we have this site is because so many people report being deceived.
* Attention should be paid to the fact that some people find anesthesia very upsetting and may prefer a few minutes of moderate physical discomfort to a longer period of mental discomfort. Versed appears to cause PTSD in some people.
* Having a bad experience blocked from long term memory is not the same as never having had the experience in the first place. We think that if they have to make you forget, then they are not taking adequate steps to manage pain and discomfort.
* Versed is not a requirement for surgery. Medical professionals should be completely honest about the effects, and not try to trick or coerce a patient into having it. It should not be used solely for the profit or convenience of the medical staff.


What can you do?

Watch out for these commonly used phrases:

* "I am giving you something to relax you." This is too often an understatement, given the frequent side effects. This statement also completely avoids mentioning the amnesia Versed causes.
* "You will be given Conscious Sedation." or "You will be awake, but won't remember anything." This means they probably want to use Versed.
* "You will be in La-La Land." How you can be anywhere you don't remember beats us! "La-La Land" would be more like having a large dose of pain killers - you would be awake but not care. With Versed you will be functional but won't remember a thing.
* Beware of "Most People..." When you have a choice with your anesthesia, you should not feel pressured to make a decision based on what "most people" receive.
* "You are not a Doctor " So what? That does not make you uninformed. For all they know other doctors (your primary care physician for starters) may have already told you enough to make an informed decision. Besides, this is no excuse for pushing you to have an amnesia drug!

Insist on answers!

* Remember that anesthesiologists are not employees of the hospital, but they have no problem hiding behind hospital rules when there is a problem.
* Keep in mind that they are working for you, so ultimately YOU are the boss. Most of them will not volunteer anything, so you must be prepared to ask them very specific questions, and be very assertive. A patient advocate, who can be a caring friend or relative, should accompany you to all appointments and procedures and take notes.
* Be sure to find out what your financial liability will be if you are not satisfied.

If you aren't happy, complain!

There are concerned people out there who will accept your feedback. At least we like to think there are a few. They can't read our minds. Complain first to the hospital. They may ask you to put it in writing. Do so. That way there is a record of your complaint. Then, talk to your anesthesiologist. Chances are, he/she works through a group. If the anesthesiologist does not respond, try going to the associates group.

If someone botches a repair job on your car people don't fault you for complaining. But many people feel bad about complaining to a doctor or a hospital, even though they are working on something far more precious - YOU. Don't be intimidated!


Personal Accounts

Kirt's Account:

I had bilateral hernia surgery with laparoscopy. I knew I was facing general anesthesia, but I fell hook line and sinker for the 'I am giving you something to relax you' line before the surgery.

I had what seemed like a good conversation with the anesthesiologist and was feeling like I could trust him, so I thought 'OK I will be a little groggy, but conscious until he puts me to sleep for the main event'. No mention of conscious sedation or Versed was made. Just after I reached the operating table I realized something was happening, and then my memory disappeared in a roar of static.

I awoke to discover that not only had I been put to sleep for the main event, I had even been excluded from the prep.

When I later complained, I was told "Most People are very happy to wake up and have the procedure over with". Well I wasn't, I was livid, and when I was told the above I should have said "that's fine for them, but what does it have to do with me?"

It has been eight months since the surgery and I still feel taken advantage of, treated as if I was a five year-old, and yes, raped of my memory. I cannot see how a trained MD or anyone can justify the withholding of fundamental information like this. Even when I confronted him several weeks after the surgery he still tried to avoid saying I had been given Versed, until I finally said 'you gave me Versed didn't you?' I can only think that there must be a problem with this drug if they don't want to tell you they are using it.

Worse yet, the anesthesiologist's response to my questioning him was to lecture me about how I had to 'trust those who know what they are doing', and told me that I was one of those people who wanted to know everything. Personally I will never trust another anesthesiologist in my life. I wish I had said that, but I was still so shaken from my original experience that I just listened, dumbfounded.

While the surgery was technically successful I will always regard it as a failure because of the above.

Mary's account:

I went in for out-patient abdominal surgery. I had had several surgeries in the past and am not squeamish about surgery.

Prior to being wheeled down to surgery, I was told that they were giving me "something to relax me." I recall getting in the chair and going part way to the OR, but that is where my memory stopped. I have no recall of meeting the surgical team, getting onto the table, etc.

When I awoke, I was very agitated and upset. I remember wondering what had happened to me, with the sense that something very bad had happened but I couldn't remember what. I had finger-mark bruises on my upper arms and several other, larger bruises elsewhere. My neck hurt so bad that I was unable to turn my head for 24 hours.

I was extremely distressed that the hospital had not told me about the effects of versed and experienced severe anxiety for months about the memory gap. I had to go to counseling and was put on an anti-anxiety medication.

When I complained to the hospital, I was patronized and treated like a little kid. I did not feel as if they took me seriously.

Weeks later, I went to use my instant cash card, put it into the machine, and went to enter the PIN number, when I realized, much to my shock, that I had absolutely no idea of what the number was. I had used the same PIN for years. It never did come back. No doubt there are other 'lost' things, but I haven't recognized what they are.

Tim's Account:

I had bilateral hernia repair in September of 2004. The original plan was to use MAC ("Monitored Anesthetic Care"). The anesthesiologist did not explain the effects of Versed and did not explain that the MAC would be initiated in the holding area before I was wheeled to the OR.

The drug was not named. I was only told that from my perspective, the experience would seem like general anesthesia. This did not make sense - it seemed contradictory. The "A" word (amnesia) was not mentioned. I have had numerous operations in the past and my experience led me to assume that the main event would occur in the OR. The anesthesiologist introduced the Versed into the IV while I was still in the holding area. I asked what it was and the reply was simply "benzodiazepines." I know what benzos are and thought I was getting something like Valium. I was shocked when, from my perspective, I found myself in recovery what seemed like a few minutes later.

After surgery I was told that I had a bad reaction to the Versed so they ended up putting me under. The nurse in the PACU said that my legs were shaking and this is why they used general anesthesia. The surgeon's report stated that I was moving my extremities and would not be still. I was also told that I was unable to follow instructions. This is disturbing since I am not squeamish about surgery nor have I ever been out of control like this.

When I later spoke with my anesthesiologist, she used a lot of euphemistic baby talk, describing the amnesia as "making you forgetful" and describing the general anesthesia as "we had to make you more sleepy". My surgeon dodged the bullet saying "We're always ready to do general when we do MAC". This is all BS. Looking back on the experience, my wife and I agree that the anesthesiologist was very deceptive.

I am an electrical engineer. In the weeks after my return to work, I found that I had no recall of certain details of my job. We are very procedure and detail oriented. I found that certain blocks of information seemed to have simply disappeared from my long term memory. What else have I forgotten?

For three years post-op I experienced flashbacks of anxiety that occurred randomly - while at work, while driving, while teaching. These were accompanied by an odd sensation of trying to recall a memory but it refused to come into focus. Very strange, very unsettling - and I never experienced anything like this before exposure to Versed.

I was in my 40's when this happened. I have had several surgeries, numerous emergency room visits and my share of dental work. I never had a bad outcome or cause to complain until my Versed episode.

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684 comments:

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anonymous said...

I spent the last hour or so reading the posts starting from the very beginning. I stopped half-way through 2007 when I realized that I could not finish the whole thing in one sitting. But the little that I did read has reinforced what I believe to be true. I want to briefly report my wife's experience. She had a colonoscopy two weeks ago and was given 7 mg of Versed and 125 ug of fentanyl. Prior to the surgery, she was an active, intelligent, independent, strong-willed, and outgoing mother and wife. You name any positive human attribute and I know that it could be applied to my wife. However, in the two weeks since the surgery, she has been an absolute basketcase. She is prone to daily panic attacks, mood swings, and cannot perform simple day-to-day tasks. Never has she behaved like this, and I have know her for 28 years. I am a medical professional and have read a good deal of the scientific and anecdotal literature on Versed. I understand the neurochemisty of the drug at the molecular level and how it can alter brain functioning. Indeed, it is this basic scientific understanding that helps me to cope with my wife and provide her the emotional support she needs. I also understand that Versed only impacts a small proportion of the population who use it. However, for those whom it does impact, the effects can be terrifying. My wife and I are getting through this one day a time. We have resources such as family and friends who will get us through this. However, I did want to post my thoughts to relieve some of my own anxiety and also to reassure others who have similar symptoms that they are not "crazy" and are certainly are not alone. Thank you.

Never Again said...

Good post "anonymous!"

Kay said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kay said...

Need help seeing comments past page one. kay.grace@hotmail.com

Unknown said...

Thank you so much for starting this site. I too am a 'victim' of Versed and experienced (am still experiencing) most all of the same reactions. I differ from most (not all) of the cases here in that the Versed did not completely work. I remember everything that happened including the fact that I was screaming for the doctor to stop the procedure. Neither the doctor nor the nurse ever spoke to me during the procedure even though I was clearly telling them that I was in severe distress. (Screaming, actually, 'Stop, please stop!'). They removed 2 polyps and did a biopsy that I felt (though the doctor later said i could not have felt it as the colon doesn't have that sort of pain sensitivity) and then stopped the procedure. The procedure was not completed and the doctor admitted that it was because I was in so much distress. That being the case I do not understand how they could have done anything at all! (I started complaining from the beginning!) Amazingly the report I was given included the comment 'the patient tolerated the experience'! Asked why they did not administer more Fentanyl (I had 150 micrograms {?})I was informed that I was too old! (I'm 76). I was given 5 mg. of Versed that did not make me forget. I don't know if this supports the Versed discussion but now, several weeks after the procedure, I am experiencing all of the previously noted side effects (insomnia, the sense of being violated, forgetfulness, inability to concentrate, irrational anger, etc.). Thank you for this opportunity to comment and for all the comments that came before, it's helps to know that I'm not alone. As for the pompous Mr. Unknown who suggests our suffering can't be compared to those who 'TRULY suffer' - I wonder how he can be so sure that our suffering is so insignificant? Maybe he should 'not judge others until he's walked a mile in their shoes'!

Maggie said...

This drug is terrible and being given for the doctors/nurses convienience only. Like most everyone else here I was given this drug with no or limited knowledge of what I was getting. A year ago I showed up for a hernia repair with a bad headache. They refused to deal with it even as we prepared to leave the hospital refusing treatment. They promised relief, a syringe full of versed and there went my memory. Later had upper scope. As I'm laying there looking at the syringes I ASK what they are. "Oh we use Fentanyl and versed here" then tells me I will have a conversation with doc but won't remember it. Before I could protest they shot me up. That episode scared the daylights out of me. I was angry and chewed out recovery nurse. Next the BIG C was scheduled. I told office, dr assistant, hospital admitting, pre op nurse and procedure nurse I did not want versed. Doc comes in and is pissed when nurses tells him I don't want the poison. He tells me we don't want to do prep all over and problem is he must get me sedated. Being naive I consent if they won't flood my system with it. Too late, I'm out then wake up half was through in pain from hell. Crying, grabbing the bars begging for help, raising up to look back. Doc never misses a beat and no one is concerned. I AM AWAKE! I vow to never have versed ever in my life. Every doctor visit or procedure now involves a battle to not have this. Recently had low back shots. I say no versed. They do their best to talk me into it. Short but very painful procedure. I think back to first time I had it done. Devils they are. I was told to lay facing the floor. I had noticed two vials and asked what they were. They say fentanyl. I figure the other is in case I have a bad reaction to pain med. NO, it was versed and given to me without my knowledge. This second time around I insisted in watching the IV the entire time. When doc comes in nurse tells him I refuse versed. They try and tell me I have had it before and if I don't take that I get nothing. I pick nothing. Why are they so upset. Is loss of memory and compliance that important. I would rather face the pain/discomfort rather to not be able to remember what happened for maybe the rest of the day and wonder what took place. Evil evil people who pump this poison into us.

Maggie said...

Oh trust me PTSD is very real with medical procedures like this. I was diagnosed after enduring the colonoscopy from hell. Awake through at least half of it from a man without a gentle touch. I begged for pain meds and was given two Xanax. Slap in the face. I had to go to ER next day pain was so bad. I had a hard time dealing with what this man did to me. It felt and still feels like brutal rape. I was at his mercy, could do nothing to make him stop hurting me, crying out for help and everyone just staring at me. Had two doctors afterwards tell me I should have asked for more versed. They were not listening to me cry and beg for pain meds. I was told "we will ask the doctor". They count on you not remembering anything. Pain is there in full force, just forget it. One follow up doctor told me I could not have remembered the horrible event because versed makes you remember things wrong and what I perceive as half a procedure was probably only a minute. I heard the nurse say they were going around a corner...
Later I asked this doctor why he hurt me and his response was that he "did good by me". How does hurting someone with hopes they don't remember be called doing good? I will never have another C scope, ever in my life. I think about it and burst into tears. Doc said I have PTSD....it is real and terrifying

Kay said...

My heart breaks and my blood boils when I read posts like Maggie's and so many others. I just cannot understand what 'medicals' are thinking when they treat people like we've heard and read so many times.

Maggie said...

Thank you Kay for understanding. Unless someone has a horrible experience like this they just cannot understand. I am still haunted by it and my trust in the medical community is gone. I had never had a surgerical procedure till I was 57 so I was unaware and naive. I trusted the hospital and doctors. I read thru the consent forms and no where did it mention the drugs, side effects or their use. The hospital form has all the drugs listed so the nurse/doctor can just check off what they give you at the time. I signed a consent for an anesthesiologist so I thought I would be receiving that care.

I remember waking up in the middle of the procedure crying out and begging for relief. No one acknowledged me. That tells me that they didn't give a care or I had been crying out the whole time. To the naysayers let me tell you this was the worse pain I have ever experienced. I had two large babies naturally and this was worse. I begged for pain medication during and afterwards and the doctor gave me a script for two Xanax! I tore it up. He later said that he gave me those to get me through the day! Xanax is not a pain medication! Later when I confronted him over the phone he did not say he was sorry I had pain he just kept telling me he "did good by me". What the hell that means I don't know. PTSD is an anxiety disorder following a traumatic event that involved the threat of injury or death. If you don't think I suffered greatly at the hands of a doctor and hospital staff or I had the power or choice to make the pain stop you are wrong. I begged for them to stop, I begged for pain meds. NO ONE LISTENED and I got hurt, first physically and then mentally. I now insist on watching any IV I have and demanding to know exactly what they intend on putting in it. Any pills must be brought to me in their original wrapper. My trust is gone and I hope no one ever has to go through what I did. Please ask questions and demand an alternative to versed. The chance you may have a bad experience is not worth the risk.

Never Again said...

Maggie I have PTSD from Versed as well. It is very hard to live with and it amazes me that these cretins in the medical field continue blithely shooting up EVERYBODY within reach with Versed. There are enough patients complaining and the side effects are debilitating enough that they, being so much smarter than everybody else, should have figured it out! Yet they deny to their dying breath that it could possible have been Versed that caused this kind of damage! How smart is that?

In the 6 years since I was almost destroyed by this drug, and the longer time that Tim has had this site up, how many additional people have had to deal with the aftermath of Versed? Why is our medical community doing this to us?

Maggie said...

Never again---I don't know! It is amazing at some of the reaction I get from the medical community. I now have versed listed as an allergy. When visiting my clinic I had a nurse look at that and comment "sure makes it hard to do a colonosscopy". I wanted to yell and educate her that versed is not a wonder drug, for the patient. Is excrutiating pain a requirement of a c-scope? If so lets treat that pain not just knock me out with a drug that will hopefully make me forget the horror. I had another nurse tell me her story of being knocked out and the doctor gave her so much she does not remember anything the entire day. That may be find with you but not me. Some have tried to make this my fault because I didn't want versed. I got it anyway with the dose the doctor wanted to give me and it did not work. I cried out, I begged, no one took action. Perhpas they can tell me what I should have done differently. I've been sent to counseling to deal with this. Most of my friends don't want to hear about it. Mainly because they don't want to think this has happened to them but they were lucky enough not to remember. This drug is given out for the slightest thing, such as my back shots. It is not necessary at all but now I realize that if I am forced to forget any pain they will seem like wonderful healers. I have had some ask me what versed does to me. I tell them it gives me a rash and makes me call my attorney! Hang in there, I am grateful to find others that understand what I went through and I hope no one else ever has to deal with this.

Never Again said...

Maggie there is a really scary post up on www.askapatient.com on the Versed page. In it the alleged patient claims that doctors often keep going with the patient screaming because it's easier and the patient might not remember it anyway. Nobody in their right mind would put themselves at risk for pure torture with a drug which may or may not cause amnesia.

The whole idea of Versed is so that patients can be subjected to abuse and pain without them remembering it. Medical personnel would have to go slower AND they would have to stop if the patient told them to without Versed. With Versed they can just dispense with the niceties and get to the brutality.

For me, they gave it to me against my wishes, lied to me about the name of the drug and lied to me about what it does. They did this so that I couldn't object to them giving me g/a also against my wishes. Then they lied again when they told me how "necessary" g/a was even though I had declined to give them permission, verbally or written for this...

By simply OMITTING the part where they gave me Versed, they could and did claim that they had my full cooperation in receiving general anesthetic after all that time telling them over and over not to sedate me and not to give me g/a. Yes I did cooperate with them and watched, trapped in helpess horror as my body obeyed them. I didn't get amnesia...

This is the most evil drug ever devised. I'm still angry after all these years. I know a lot of people (besides me) who have declined Versed or anything like it and gotten it anyway. These people who inject this poison are addicted to torture, power and control. End of statement!

Maggie said...

Never again....I had the same reaction and it has and forever has altered my life. Thank goodness I am strong willed enough to fight NOT to receive this drug. When I went for SI injections the "sedation nurse" tried several times to make me accept it. Threatened that if I didn't take the poison she would not give me something else. I am very anxious before procedures...mainly cause I don't like bad pain! I don't mind being fuzzy, goofy or loopy but I want to be aware of what is going on around me. You make me confortable and I will gladly watch the procedure with interest. Versed is evil and not necessary. I have to wonder if people would feel different about it if they could see what happened to them but versed kept them from remembering it.

Medical community take note: it is NOT okay to hurt me! I don't care what you gave me but if I cry out and tell you to stop you should. Take the time to find out if this is just fear or you have inflicted pain I cannot tolerate. I should be able to trust you and not have to insist on watching my IV continuously, which I now do. Don't tell me this is an isolated case. I have had nurses tell me they have seen this very thing happen. I had an ER doctor tell me it was a brutal procedure. This when I went in for a complete mental breakdown following my "episode". I bolted from the hospital and melted down outside. I'm not a hysterical person. You have casued damage to me that I will never forget. I AM grateful that I found out about this poison before further harm could be done to me.

Once you sign a generic consent form they can and do give you versed then can pretty much do whatever they want. There are other options by God, use them and quit harming us for the sake of your wallet.

Thank you Never again for understanding. You don't know how much it means to have support.

Maggie said...

Here is frosting for the cake. When all this happened at our preferred provider hospital I threatened to write a strong letter to the hospital administrator. I was asked not to because our insurance carrier gets such a good discount there!
Not only did I get brutal treatment I got it at a discount!

Such a deal!!

Anonymous said...

Maggie, my colonoscopy experience with Versed was almost identical to yours.I was told only that I would be given a sedative, with no explanation of the amnesia, even after specifically requesting to be awake. I signed a consent form (of which I now have a copy)agreeing to "conscious sedation," with no explanation of what it would involve. I remember feelings of panic, anxiety, dizziness, and overwhelming fear, all within seconds of the medication being injected in the I.V. (Prior to this I was completely calm & relaxed, which is also noted in my records) There was no feeling of relaxion or euphoria. My next memory is "waking up" in excruciating pain, thrashing about, but unable to see or hear anything. I have never before felt pain of such intensity, and I am a petite woman who has given birth four times, once to a baby over nine pounds. I may have been screaming (at least I was in my head), but I don't know if it was audible. I don't remember anyone trying to comfort me or assure me. They must have injected me with more Versed, as I then felt my body go limp, and a "veil" of blackness came over me.
I have fragmented memories of "recovery"... I found myself in mid-sentence at one point, arguing with a couple of nurses,with no memory of the rest of the conversation...I remember the doctor being angry at me, but I couldn't figure out why.. I remember them telling me to just "go home and sleep off" the terrible vertigo and nausea I felt...and then when I got home, the real nightmares began....
Insomnia, anxiety, anger (bordering on rage), and DEEP depression, all of which lasted for months & months, until I was finally left with an unhealthy obsession and hatred of Versed, and what it did to me...which continues to the current day, four years later.
I also have been left with a mistrust of medical people, and my worst fear is being given this drug again without my knowledge or consent. What is most disturbing to me is the lack of understanding and compassion from people (especially in the medical field) who DO NOT GET IT.
That's why this blog (and NeverAgain's blog) were created. You have support here. I am so sorry about what happened to you, and you are not alone.

Never Again said...

Maggie I honestly believe that if it hadn't been for Tim and Kirt here at versedbusters I might have gone completely insane. I was so fragile, so completely destabilized, as to be suicidal and homicidal. I couldn't seem to control myself at all. The incessant pacing, the insomnia, the feeling of crawling out of my skin. I shudder when I think of how close I came on many occasions to going on a rampage and then killing myself, just to make it stop. Nobody should have this happen to them. This is beyond a little "bad reaction." Like the medical people say when they try to minimize the problem. There is NO EXCUSE to subject patients to this. These side effects are so bizarre and so debilitating that Versed use should stop immediately. If you crunch the numbers of bad reactions that are ADMITTED, (10%) against the number of people who are poisoned with Versed on a daily basis, that's a LOT of people. It's unacceptable in the 21st century.

Anonymous said...

Continued from colonoscopy post above...
I also wanted to say that Versed is NOT necessary for any successful surgery or procedure; I agree also that it is used soley for the convienence & benefit of the medical staff.
Some of us actually remember a time when patients weren't shot up with Versed within seconds of entering the hospital doors...
Why do they (medical people) just ASSUME that everyone wants their memory stolen as soon as possible ? Why not ask ?
I had major surgery 25 years ago, pre-Versed, and (horrors!) was actually allowed to see (and remember) the "big, bad, operating room" (as a poster on another site referred to it). Guess what ? IT DIDN'T BOTHER ME ! Yes, every patient is different, but I was not feaked out in the least by the equipment & medical team around me; it made me feel safe & cared for. The anesthesiologist had me "count" to 100 (unheard of now !!), and I drifted into unconciousness peacefully, and awoke to a caring, compassionate nurse, and I knew exactly where I was. Compare this to the experience I related above...
What a difference !

Maggie said...

Anonymous-believe it or not you made me smile today. Oh yes the old days. Although like I said my first surgery at the age of 57 was just last year. After the experience at the hospital where they neglected me for 1.5 hours with a migraine and dealing with it pre surgery with a big dose of versed I had to have my gallbladder out a short 12 weeks later. My surgeon who was still angry at the hospital arranged for me to be treated at a surgery center. Night and day difference. When I discussed some issues with the anesthesiologist she calmly said "we have better stuff here" and I received something that was a mild relaxant. I remember going to the operating room, joking about the table, moving over, the mask being gently lowered and them telling me it was time to go to sleep. Woke up fine and not the least bit stressed. For surgery it was a pleasant experience. My other procedures could have been just as comfortable if they had not pumped versed in me, rushed through and caused the mistrust and hurt I will forever feel. It amazes me how medical workers blindly sit there and allow this stuff to go on. I had the nurse in the ER tell me she had witnessed some c-scopes with versed and they can be really bad! Just goes to show how terrible this system is. I want to be awake, I don't want to suffer undue pain, discomfort is fine, screaming pain is not. God gave us the knowledge to create drugs to help and heal us. Versed is not one of them. Let us use them for the benefit of the patient, before damage is done. Please someone tell me why Versed is go much better than truly treating the patient with kindness, compassion and respect. If they had done that I would not have racked up an ER visit the next day, x-rays to see if damage had been done and pain meds for over 24 hours to cope with the discomfort...then the anti-anxiety meds, more ER visits and more meds. ARGH!

Maggie said...

Well isn't this sweet?! I got this info from psyweb.com

Versed is also used in end of life care to calm patients anxiety and restlessness.

Sooo now we just wipe out the old peoples memories and make them compliant while we watch them pass away!

DISGUSTING!!

Anonymous said...

You can have an "advance directive" written up, and include in that form an absolute refusal of sedatives, just pain medication. It's supposed to be legally binding.
I've been so paranoid about receiving Versed again, I have even considered asking an attorney if there's anything I can do right now to have my wishes granted.

Maggie said...

I wonder if these idiots was accept a tattoo that says no versed ever! The root of my concern is how the medical community is sneaky and underhanded in giving this out. The first time I heard the nurse tell me (last year), "you'll have a conversation with the doctor but probably won't remember it" I panicked. Why have that conversation? You going to give me directions? You gonna tell me what is or is not wrong? Why the heck bother. I guess they can always come back with "we discussed that". The last time they did this to me I struggled hard after the procedure to remain coherent and the first thing out of my mouth was "get my husband". There was not going to be any conversation without a witness. Doctor was angry and things escalated pretty fast when he had to answer questions by someone not drugged. People, this is the stuff that goes on. Another thing that haunts me is when they started shooting the versed in my IV I had to presence of mind to lift up and look around. There were a couple guys in the room not dressed in medical garb! I don't know who they were or what they were doing there. No one told me!! Did they participate in my c-scope or just watch for fun??? Another reason I want to be aware of everything that is going on around me!

anonymous said...

Isn't it possible (even probable), that if pain is experienced during a procedure, the subconscious mind may remember that, even though drug-induced amnesia erases the conscious memory of it. That could explain many psychological and emotional problems posted here. Medical professionals seem to have different definitions than those we use for concepts like "memory" and "consciousness."

Maggie said...

consciousness-that is a big one for me. Versed contradicts the very meaning of the word. Once that poison was pumped into my body I lost my ability to deal with my situation. Not only that but when I expressed horrific pain the medical staff refused to deal with it. My pain was bad enough to bring me out of a versed and fentanyl cocktail. It is not okay to depend on a drug to make you forget in lieu of proper treatment. Pain can and should be treated instead of simply trying to erase the memory you suffered trauma.

If I drug you so I can beat the crap out of you and the next day you can't remember it does that make the act okay?

Never Again said...

Maggie, I have a friend who has actually had NO VERSED tattooed on her arms. I am not aware of any other drug which has this kind of dramatic effect on people, especially far beyond the time of injection.

My own sister has been given "a little bit" of Versed after adamantly refusing ANY Versed. She wrote all over her paperwork "no Versed" and also verbally demanded that "no Versed" was to be used. They verbally stated that she would recive "no Versed" and they gave it to her anyway.

Yes, the word "consciouness" is a strange one in medical vernacular. It means the opposite to us in re Versed. Most of us who have received Versed experience it as a loss of consciousness, a black hole, like general anesthesia. Those WATCHING have a perception that the patient IS conscious. So calling it conscious sedation is a misnomer, a lie of ommission. Medical people don't care what the patient experiences!

They lie about pain too! So many people have told me that they were in agaony during their Versed experience, which is totally denied by their caregivers.

So "consciouness" can be UN conscious from the patient perpective and pain, unremembered or remembered is non existant if they give you Versed. I would think that the patient perpective would be the one that is of concern, but Versed has turned this on its head.

Yes, attacking somebody and causing grievous bodily injury, or assaulting somebody with a date rape drug such as Versed is illegal. Only medical people can get away with this kind of anti social behavior.

Heather B said...

I have had over 30 colonoscopies due to a bought of rectal cancer and cronic Crohns Disease, probably ALL used Versed and Fentanyl combination. I do believe I have some very damaging long term side effects. I dont remember my childrens births, my best friends funeral not to mention the little things of my every day life. I just look at my husband with these blank looks and say "when did that happen". He thinks I am crazy!! You dont have any idea how relieved I am to find this info here!! Now what do I do with it??

Anonymous said...

What you do with the info, Heather, is empower yourself with it. And the cornerstone of that empowerment is awareness -- which, thankfully, is the very thing that a site like Versed Busters raises. You can do a few things with this awareness:

First, refuse Versed in the future should a medical practitioner want to administer it to you. There is simply no good or valid reason to ever purposely induce amnesia during a medical procedure. It is only a recent development in medical thinking that amnesia is somehow a "benefit" to the patient, but sadly all too often the patient isn't given an opportunity to make that judgment for himself. At any rate, I maintain that the pharmacological inducement of amnesia is NEVER a medical necessity, and I welcome any medical professional to cite a single credible and objective basis for thinking otherwise.

Second, raise other people's awareness to this terrible drug and familiarize yourself with your rights as a patient, as well as with the concept of informed consent.

And third, recognize that time moves forward; not backward. If your repeated exposure to Versed has caused you memory problems, there is no constructive purpose in dwelling on it, or in torturing yourself with wondering what changes the drug may have caused to your mind. To do either is an easy (and potentially agonizing) trap to fall into. Obviously you do want to address those emotions because it would be unhealthy to suppress them, but one important thing to keep in mind is to not allow them to take over your life. Instead, the best way to recover on a cognitive level, I think, is to let all that extra "stuff" go (and by "stuff," I mean anger, resentment, the endless "what ifs," etc.).

It is absolutely atrocious that a drug like Versed even exists, and worse still that it remains in such widespread use. But Versed is simply yet another reflection of the craziness of the world we live in. I don't know if you ever saw the movie Lock Up starring Sylvester Stallone, but in an early scene, the main character defines his daily approach to life with the acronym "D.T.A." -- which stands for "Don't trust anyone." Unfortunately, with the ethics and behavior of the contemporary medical profession being such as they are, that particular approach is the only viable one for today's patients. Indeed, in an age where potent, brain-disabling drugs are being given out like candy by doctors and nurses all over the world, without the patient receiving even the most basic explanation of these drugs' side effects or mechanisms of action, trust is sadly no longer an option. Awareness, however, is -- in fact, it is an imperative. And don't expect doctors, nurses, or pharmaceutical companies to bestow it upon you. Instead, each patient needs to gain it for himself, which is why sites like Versed Busters are so valuable.

I wish you well in the future with your health problems.

Maggie said...

bartleby012 has good advice Heather. You need to be strong in your battle to take control of your health care. It is amazing who and where they will try to give you this stuff. Many of your friends won't want to hear anything about it. A few have told me that as long as they don't remember they are okay with the drug. I think if they saw a video of themselves crying out in pain and being ignored they would change their minds. A nurse told me she lost an entire day and a half due to versed. An alarming thing is that other than appearing dumb to people by asking the same question over and over you seem fine and can drive, shop, etc. I had a doctor tell me this happened to him! Versed is not necessary and should be banned. Many people claim nothing happened to them under the influence of versed, but how would they know since the drug erases their memory!? I saw one of the family practice doctors for help after my trauma and she told me you can't trust your memory with versed and what I thought was a long while was probably only a minute and gave me a sales pitch for versed. That enforced the "cover your friends butt" theory I have always thought was out there between doctors.

Heather be strong and insistant that it is your health and you want to be fully informed and in control of what happens to you. There are options to versed that don't have the side effects this stuff does. Be prepared to cancel procedures or tests if the medical staff does not want to abide by your wishes. If enough of us demand to be informed and take an active role in our own care they eventually will have to listen, I hope! Good luck to you and be strong.

anonymous said...

If I am being given a drug that will make me agreeable to doing/saying things that I wouldn't normally do, and if I am going to have no memory of those things, I certainly don't call that being CONSCIOUS! Yet I was later told I had been "conscious" when brought into the OR for my last surgery. There is a reason that Versed is also a date-rape drug. How do these doctors define "conscious"?

anonymous said...

If these doctors can call this altered state "conscious" how long before the courts consider that women who were drugged and assaulted with Versed or similar date rape drugs were also conscious and therefore capable of giving consent? This has the potential to be a dangerous legal definition of consciousness.

anonymous said...

I spoke with the anesthesiologist the night before my surgery, and she NEVER mentioned amnesia, or possible memory problems afterwards. But I didn't know that she had left out important information, so I signed an "informed consent" form. How could I know she had withheld major facts about the drugs she planned to use? "Informed consent" is a farce created to protect them from lawsuits. I would love to see it successfully challenged in the courts. If you aren't familiar with a topic, you can't possibly know if you have been completely informed or if information has been withheld. I would rather be given a lengthy document (like I get with prescriptions) and have the option to read or discard the material. At least then the doctor would have presented all the info and I had a choice, and it would be documented what information had been provided to me.

anonymous said...

Not being told in advance about the amnesia was (for me) even worse than the amnesia itself. I think I could have handled the amnesia much better if I had been warned it would occur. The way it was handled made me feel unsafe and lied to by the doctors I trusted with my life. When I spoke to counselors or social workers afterwards about the amnesia and subsequent memory problems, I was told it didn't happen! How could they possibly know what I was experiencing? So the intial problems were compounded by people who belittled how upset I was. I thank everyone who has posted here - you have restored my belief in my sanity. Finding that other people had very similar experiences is very helpful and healing to me. Even if no one in the medical community believes us, we know that our experiences were REAL and we are not alone.

-Tim said...

Anonymous:

Regarding your first point, I agree that "conscious sedation" is a BS, disingenuous term.

Your second point never occurred to me. I just hope our society isn't screwed up enough to slide down that slope.

Your experience with "informed consent" is identical to mine. "Farce" is correct.

I also agree with you about not being told about the amnesia. At least my counselor agreed that this was a "lie of omission".

Never Again said...

Anonymous, you nailed the reasons why Versed should be banned for human use. Good job!

anonymous said...

My surgical experience four years ago with "conscious sedation" was so traumatic that when I was recently diagnosed with cancer, I seriously considered foregoing surgery. Sad but true - I am more worried about surviving the doctors than surviving the cancer. The chemotherapy drugs and the radiation, and even the cancer all put together don't scare me nearly as much as the medical personnel. I have surgery scheduled for the near future and MUST avoid repeating the previous experience. Anyone have any advice on what drugs don't cause the same effects as Versed? The anesthesiologist is currently determined to use Versed and is basically blackmailing me with a choice of Versed or no surgery at all. I hate the fact that you can choose the rest of your doctors but the anesthesiologist is randomly assigned to you.

anonymous said...

When I asked about "side effects" of the meds used for conscious sedation, amnesia was never mentioned. I wonder if that's because amnesia is not a "side effect" - it's the main reason for giving Versed. To me that is deceitful and a lie of omission by the anesthesiologist. It's hard to know what questions to ask and exactly how to phrase them, and it's scary that personnel will use any loophole to avoid giving complete, accurate information, yet claim that you were fully informed when you signed the informed consent. How does anyone deal with that clause in the informed consent document that allows staff to do anything deemed necessary if they encounter something unexpected? I know that clause has been abused by many doctors.

-Tim said...

To Anonymous from March 11, 2012 4:22 PM-

All I can suggest is you persist until you find a doc that will work without Versed. A retired Navy Commander I know liked one doc so well he ended up calling him back for two more procedures.

As far as I know, you should be able to hire someone else. Tell the other person they are FIRED. Period.

kathy said...

I am three years out from my Versed Trauma...I still suffer loss of steps during simple tasks. Short term memory is constantly fuzzy at best. Anxiety and an untangible fear have become my demons, and let us not leave out Depression.
I have had to undergo surgery 2x since Versed. What I do now is on the paper that you sign for ansthesia dr. I write :

I DO NOT consent for use of VERSED in any AMOUNT or at ANYTIME EVER.

Then sign your name. I have discussed this with Ansth Dr. Prior to signing right at bedside since thats the only time you see them now. I've had two totally different reactions. I did not get this nasty drug either time tho, so frankly could care less if they like it or not. When Ansthe Dr comes take control! It's your body, your life!
I now boldly state I do not require amnesia to have this treatment. Use the word Amnesia, be assertive and unmoveable, then WRITE IT , then SIGN IT.
Kathy

Amanda said...

I had a bad experience with Versed not doing its job yesterday...i went to have a colonoscopy and they gave me versed, demerol, and phenergen. They told me it would knock me out and i wouldnt remember the pain. Well, i remember the whole thing and it was horrific pain! I was screaming and begging them to stop or give me more meds and they just ignored me. :(

Never Again said...

Gee Amanda, they snookered you too! They gave you pain meds, an anti-nausea medication and they tried to give you amnesia. None of the drugs you mention "knock you out!"

I can't believe that all these years after I got shot up with Versed, they still are giving this drug to unsuspecting patients. They are still LYING their butts off about what these drugs do, especially Versed. Demerol is a crap drug for pain as well.

Skagway Sleuth said...

It is comforting to know that I am not alone in my experience with the fentanyl and versed cocktail given to me during my endoscopy/colonoscopy. I was never told by the doctor either what drugs, what dosages or what side effects I could have. I am 59 and a half and the drug instructions say that people over 60 may have problems. Boy did I! I was unceremoniously sent packing with no instructions or warnings, I drove around all day shopping and have no memory of that day. Only on the third day after experiencing ALL of the previously mentioned bad effects did I call the doctors office - gone until the following week. Called my doctor - too busy to answer the phone. Called the hospital - the nurse there finally told me the names of the drugs she had given me. In Alaska, they don't even use an anesthesiologist. The nurse can take a 10 hours course in "conscious sedation" and then give these drugs to patients. She seemed annoyed that I called to ask questions and said to go to the Emergency if I had problems. (I live 110 miles away from the hospital which is not accessible except by ferry). After doing some research - including your site, did I understand what had happened to me. I also remember some guy in street clothes standing behind me while the nurse flipped me over and my gown fell off. The doctor was on the phone so I never even talked to him. Later while I was so drugged I couldn't understand speech, he came and talked to me and the nurse said I could get dressed and leave. I feel angry, now a month later and cannot stop thinking about the events. I saw a mental health counselor two days ago that said I have PTSD which is caused by the amygdala going into hyperdrive and taking over your brain. I have written the hospital administrator and cc'd the doctor. I wish I had researched the procedures and the drugs before I subjected myself to these sadistic clowns. I also have thought of tatooing NO VERSED on my arms, if for no other reason than to warn other people about the dangers involved. Maggie, I feel so akin to you, I wish I could give you a hug. Your experience is so similar to mine that it makes me wonder how many other poor women out there will be conned into this hospital-money-making procedure!

TruthTeller said...

I don't understand. Reading all these awful stories about what Versed did. I went in for a colonoscopy in November of 2012. I was given versed and was wide awake through the whole procedure. I remember everything. I watched it on the screen. The anesthetic nurse was actually very good though in informing me about what might happen. Before she administered the drug in my IV, she said: "You will feel very relaxed, you might sleep or you might still be awake but you may or may not be aware of what is happening. You may not remember the procedure at all."

But what ended up happening is I was wide awake throughout. At one point, when the doctor was adding the gas, I felt pain. It was maybe an 8 on the 1-10 pain scale with 10 being worst pain ever. But I was able to tell the doctor and he told the nurse to give me more. (I guess more Versed?) And still I was not sleepy or at all unaware. I was wide awake. The procedure was over and I remember everything. I was released very quickly because the nurses in recovery commented on how "wide" awake I was.
So I don't understand how this drug did not have any "sleepy" or memory effect on me.
I believe all of you...so don't be mad... I know you and many many people experienced bad effects of Versed but I don't understand why I felt almost no effect at all.

Anonymous said...

"I don't understand. Reading all these awful stories about what Versed did."

Maybe *I* don't understand how people can have good reactions to Versed !!
Everyone is different, don't you get that ? You say you believe us, but your tone is doubtful and judgemental. I had a traumatic experience with Versed, NOTHING WAS EXPLAINED IN ADVANCE, and developed PTSD (diagnosed) afterwards. What I don't understand is why this drug is legal !

Rebecca said...

I have unfortunately been recently inducted into the Versed Hell discussed here. It sickens me that posts from medical professionals ALL see a place for Versed. Here is my bottom line: It seems that there are those of us who want to have their memory wiped for a surgery, and those of us who are willing to endure some pain or discomfort in order to have a complete mental memory to go along with our scars and cellular memory. I am definatley the latter-I wanted to know EVERYTHING that would happen to me during my surgery. The response my anesthesiologist had to this?...Wipe my memory with Versed. Seriously-she simultaneously agreed to wait on administration of all meds until a catheter was placed in the OR, while standing behind my bed and fiddling with my IV line-after which the deceit became obvious immediately in the form of drowsiness (to say the least). These people get generously paid to provide care for people-shouldn't it be their duty to find out which kind of patient they are treating? "Would you like to forget or is it important for you to remember?" should be a mandatory question for an anesthesiologist who considers using Versed to ask. What arrogance to make that decision for people!

Unknown said...

I was given Versed before shoulder surgery. It relaxed me a little tiny bit, but it did not give me amnesia. I remember every detail until they gave me the fentanyl.. I had been taking "nootropic" piracetam to sharpen memory up to 48 hours before the surgery. Could this have anything to do with it?

Unknown said...

I was given Versed before shoulder surgery. It relaxed me a little tiny bit, but it did not give me amnesia. I remember every detail until they gave me the fentanyl.. I had been taking "nootropic" piracetam to sharpen memory up to 48 hours before the surgery. Could this have anything to do with it?

Maggie said...

As previously stated I do not trust medical personnel and guard my IV line like a hawk. In March I had surgery. All was going great, lots of chatter and laughing as I was getting ready. Anesthesiologist came and went, we had a nice conversation. He then came to wheel me to the OR. He said he was going to put some med in my IV. I asked what and he said versed! I said NO, don't want it. He said I didn't have to have it but wanted to know why. I outlined the c-scope from hell. The guy tried to sell me on the miracle drug all the way to the OR. He said pain meds are suppose to be given to control the pain, duh! If we had more time I would have asked him, if that is the way it should work then why didn't someone do something when I cried out in pain, not for a second but for several minutes?? Was this not an indication I should have more pain meds?? No, because if they can wipe out the memory then why waste those precious pain meds. I had to have a second surgery and the first thing out of my mouth was NO VERSED. I tell them the truth, I find comfort in being awake when I enter the OR, I like seeing who and what is there, I actually like feeling the cooler air. All because of one damn doctor wanting to rush through a procedure has caused life changing mistrust. I hate you Versed, hate you.

Maggie said...

Skagway-interesting story, I live in Alaska too! Had my nightmare in Anchorage. We don't have many gastro docs in the state as you know. My other surgeries were done out of state, by choice. To the naysayers, I don't dwell on the issue but the mistrust this has caused is always there when I encounter medical workers. To be treated like a whiny child because I choose not to have an unnecessary drug. There are people that truly have allergic reactions to this med so treat me with the same respect and understanding you give them.

Kay said...

It's WAY WORSE than I thought!

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/22/nightmares-after-the-i-c-u/?_r=1

Chuck said...

I had my knee scoped. I asked to awake and a light sedative to take the edge off. My anesthesiologist agreed, next thing I knew, I woke up 3 hours later with no memory. I never consent to that. I'm currently fighting have them tell me why I wasn't told everything before i signed the consent form!

Never Again said...

Sorry Chuck you inadvertently uttered the code words for Versed. Never, EVER say anything about being "awake" because to medical workers "awake" means something different than it does to us. To them it means that you are obeying them AS IF you were awake. It means OBEYING them as if you were awake. The lights are on but nobody's home.

To medical workers Versed is a "light sedative" because once again, words mean something different to them than the common useage... You appear to be wide awake and talkative, so it must be a "light sedative" because otherwise you would be drowsy or sleepy. See how that works? Your brain is disconnected but your body keeps working.

The phrase "take the edge off" is commonly used on patients to get them to agree to Versed. Knocking you on your keester, giving you amnesia etc is "taking the edge off". When you said that to them, they took that to mean that you WANTED Versed. You accidently used the exact terminology that THEY use to trick people into thinking that Versed is a "light sedative" that will leave you "awake" (too bad you don't know you are awake)and since your muscles are "relaxed" they feel that they have "taken the edge off".

You have to be very careful what you say to devious medical personnel because they have subverted the English language and redefined words to suit their own agenda. Sorry you had to learn this the hard way.

Owner said...

All your medical records labeled for Allergy in red, wear an ID bracelet and necklace: "Allergy to Midazolam, Dormicum, Hypnovel, Versed will result in respiratory failure and cardiac arrest."
-From the Doctor who had SE, untoward effects that were not trivial.

Kay said...

I DID list it as an allergy. I DID have the bright red wristband. It WAS listed as an allergy multiple places in my hospital chart and I STILL GOT IT. It was clearly listed as an allergy on the anesthesia page of my chart and that page also clearly lists 'Midazolam' in the medication column.

Never Again said...

I said no to Versed as well and got it anyway the only time I got it. I had to hire a patient advocate to come with me last time to make sure that not only did I SAY NO, that the nurses HEARD IT! All of them and the doctors too. Witnesses seem to make medical people more amenable to discipline in the performance of their duties. I threatened grievous bodily injury if they shot me up with it against my will and my patient advocate let them know that there was no way that they could pretend they either "didn't know" I refused Versed or "were only trying to help" or "I use Versed on all my patients" kind of excuses.

Chris said...

Ok. I obviously have not read every post on this site, but it seems many people are complaining because they were sneakily given Versed; or because Versed doesn't relieve pain, only makes you forget that you had it. If Versed is sneakily given to you or it is being pushed on you by doctors, that is not an issue with Versed; that is an issue with the healthcare provider. If your pain is not controlled, again, that has nothing to do with Versed. You didnt get adequate pain medicine.

I also dont really understand the fear of not being able to remember the procedure or not being awake for the procedure. If you have a major surgery, you are going to be fully unconsious and you certainly arent going to remember anything. Nobody blames the drug in that scenario. The sedation is doing what it is supposed to be doing. If you dont trust the doctor who is caring for you while you are out, then you shouldnt be seeing that doctor.

I'm having a procedure done and trying to decide if I am ok with versed and fentanyl combo. This site is freaking me out, but if I dont want to be fully conscious and Im ok not remembering the procedure, then what is the big deal with Versed?

-Tim said...

Chris,

Read the intro again. Only one in ten of the bulleted items involves the issue of deception.

Then check the Related Links.

Never Again said...

Chris you are missing the point completely. The point is that medical personnel are deliberately and maliciously NOT revealing that Versed is only used for the comfort of staff. They are not revealing that it is an amnesia drug. I notice YOU don't want to use the term amnesia either.

Are you aware that with Versed, since you (probably) won't remember it anyway, medical people are just fine with pain levels that a non amnesia patient would never be subjected to? That's a problem with Versed.

We do not have a "fear" of being unable to remember the procedure. We want to be awake. We don't want our memories tampered with by this drug. Why is that so hard to understand? UNconscious means that you are not screaming and writhing in pain while the staff laughs. What if you don't get their desired AMNESIA? (there I said it again) You are comfortable with that scenario? Of course you are unaware of pain if you are UNconscious. We want pain relief. We don't want AMNESIA masquerading as pain relief.

With Versed you never know who might be performing the procedure. Could be somebody else other than the person you hired. How would you know that you can trust the person you hired not to do that?

As for your specific procedure...Versed has been know to cause "paradoxical" reactions. Some of them seem to be pretty much permananent. If you are fine with risking your mental health and cognitive function, then fine, have the Versed. The risks of this particular drug are NOT the subject of conversations with medical people.

If you want to babble on about your personal habits for the delight of staff, have the Versed.

If you are fine with scant amounts of pain medication under the premise that you won't remember the torture anyway, by all means get the Versed.

Chris said...

Ok. Ive read more posts. The complaints of PTSD and lasting effects on memory are very concerning. Are there any alternatives to versed/fentanyl combo that people have found acceptable and that doctors will use? Such as fentanyl with xanax or valium?

Never Again, sorry i didnt mean to offend you. Surgery can be very traumatic and there is no way around that fact. Doctors are probing or cutting into your body. That is horrifying, painful and traumatic. I personally would like to be unconscious for any surgery, and if i cannot be unconscious, then im not sure if i want to remember it. That is just me, and i understand everyone is different.

Never Again said...

What *I* wanted was to be wide awake, alert and pain free (as much as possible) I explained the parameters to the nurse. Instead of following my wishes I was simply injected with Versed, explained to me as a "muscle relaxant". Even the nursing board finds this explanation of Versed to be fraudulent and misleading.

Due to the effects of Versed, the inability to communicate, the unnatural obedience and the "hope" of the nurse for amnesia I also got general anesthetic which I had also forbidden.

This brain poison created and caused many mental issues which have lasted until now. It wasn't merely their treatment of me after they thought they had reduced me to an amoeba, but also the well documented (but denied by health care minions)effects of Versed on the amygdala and frontal lobe of the brain.

Sorry if I come off as offended. I just can't understand why ANYBODY would be fine with Versed or try to justify its use.

lee said...

Tim, thanks for this blog.

I went looking for this after years wondering what I'd been given for a dislocated shoulder. I do not know whether Midazolam was given to me but I was given a drug which gave me 'amnesia'.

I dislocated my shoulder (about 1998/99) and when in the emergency room they gave me morphine before the procedure to reset it.

The next thing I knew I was in a hospital ward asking the nurse whether my shoulder had been fixed, she said yes & I obviously said I couldn't remember it. She explained I'd been given something to forget.

At the time I wasn't too bothered, especially still being high on morphine but years afterwards I wondered what it was and why I wasn't told first.

To this day (15 years later) I still have strange, occasional mild flashbacks. In no way do I see this a problem but I do have these surreal images flashing into my mind of the doctors resetting the shoulder.

I don't know whether those images are just a figment of my imagination, my subconscious trying to piece together those moments (I have no idea how long I was amnesic for) or whether those images are real.
It's a very strange sensation.

I'm not sure what the alternative would be i.e. enough pain killers to kill the pain but remembering the procedure and whether remembering the procedure would be worse for me.

I do agree a patient must be told beforehand & patient consent given. The next time I'm at my GP I'll be asking him to look at my records to see what medication I was given
Lee

jayr1945 said...

Oklahoma puts 1st inmate to death since botched execution.
January 15, 2015
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/oklahoma-executes-inmate-for-first-time-since-botched-execution/

The first injection used the sedative midazolam(Versed) so if something goes wrong, he won't remember the traumatic pain. This may not be a problem for someone who is destined to die.

But I am hoping to survive the event and do not want the pain to occur in the first place.

Unknown said...

Apparently I'm unusual in wanting to remember my endoscopy experiences. For one thing, it's interesting--I like to see my teeth after they're removed; I like to see x-rays.Is it really strange or annoying to a doctor that I would like to be present, when possible, for minor procedures that don't really require GA? That strikes me as pretty arrogant.

Some years ago I had a colonoscopy and was told I wouldn't remember the procedure. I was OK with this, though a little disappointed because of general interest. The IV didn't work right, however, and though I felt detached I remember the procedure quite well. I was fine afterward. I thought that was how the drugs worked.

When I needed an upper endoscopy a couple years later, I told this to the person administering the drugs. She misunderstood. About the last thing I remember in the room where the procedure was done was her saying, "She didn't have good sedation last time, so I promised her really good sedation this time." I tried to protest, but it was too late.

All I consciously remember is being told to breathe as I was gagging.

For the next couple of months, I had symptoms of PTSD--I had recurrent dreams of being raped and strangled, and woke up trying to scream and in tears. I had to leave work on several occasions because I couldn't stop crying. I was anxious, depressed, and bewildered. I couldn't feel "good." I called the doctor's office to ask about the sedation and was told patronizingly that "that can happen," which was not very useful. I reacted to calls from that office with extreme fear and anger, as if they were stalking me.

The anesthetist, however, was very sympathetic and told me the drugs used and expressed her concern, for which I'm thankful.

It's still in my mind that that doctor raped me. I still sweat and shake thinking about that event (my hands are so cold right now thinking about it I can hardly type).

Unknown said...

(Part 2)

The thing is, I was NOT raped. I was having a procedure I WANTED to have to be sure I didn't need treatment for a problem. If my conscious mind had been present, I think I could have distinguished between having an uncomfortable but necessary medical procedure and being assaulted by someone who violated me and wanted to hurt me; I think my subconscious, all by itself due to amnesia, can't make that distinction.

I just had a second colonoscopy yesterday, and I very clearly told them this story. The nurse administering the sedation said he had "never heard of such a thing," and said that Versed left the system after eight hours (it doesn't matter whether this is true; I believe I had symptoms of PTSD from what I perceived as happening, not necessarily as a chemical result of the drug.

However, he agreed to "go light" on the Versed. I was also given gas and Demerol.

The procedure was actually pretty painful (due to scar tissue and tight angles). He asked urgently at one point if I wanted more sedation, and I said "No! I'm handling it!"

AND I DID. I didn't delay or interfere with their work; I was VERY glad to be able to be present for what happened, understand the soreness I feel today, and have a continuous memory of the procedure. It means a great deal to me that I was allowed to keep that memory!! I do not feel traumatized, I was not horrified by the (perfectly logical) sensations I felt.

I can tolerate a certain amount of pain--I actually think I'd've been able to handle it fine without any sedation at all. (Obviously major surgery is a far cry from endoscopy or dental work done under local, but I've had a fair amount of dental bone surgery under local, and was fine with that, too), but I don't think I can tolerate amnesia.

I'm not sure what dose of Versed I was given, but I'm sure it was very small, since I do have total recall. Today at work I was having trouble recalling passwords and using the function keys on an adding machine. I feel very spacey; I'm not sure which drug this is the result of, but it doesn't feel like simple lack of sleep or food. I think this is minor and will pass, but am now going to refuse Versed altogether. I'm convinced it was responsible for my trauma around a non-traumatic event.

I had not previously Googled negative side effects of Versed--I actually teared up when I read that it can cause symptoms of PTSD! All this time I thought it was because I was too sensitive and a wimp about losing memory. I thought I was a freak and it was a freak occurrence that had singled me out, but, though I'm very sorry for the others who have had bad experiences with it, I'm actually hugely relieved to know it's relatively common. Thanks for that.

Melanie said...

I would personally never allow sedation to be used on me again, the thought of being in pain and confused during a procedure and the doc just not caring because I won't remember it anyway scares me. I tried to get over my fear of conscious sedation by watching a few "ads" for it from dentists on youtube and to my horror, in a few of the the videos where the actual procedure is shown, the patients writhe in pain/groan and one even says "it hurts", only for the doc to carelessly go " a little sore, huh?" while he keeps cracking that wisdom tooth. When reading up on Midazolam it even says that it's so "great" for medical providers because they'll need less pain meds or none at all and the patient will still be compliant. "Compliant" meaning a patient won't be able to coherently demand pain relief or stop the from doing whatever.

Many years ago I had a minor dental surgery done while under conscious sedation, I was only 11 years old, and I remember being told I would be "sleeping". When I woke up I was confused and angry, but thought I had been completely out. Now I know this is not true. My mother wanted to be there for me during the operation but before giving me the sedation they sent her out of the room, she waited in front of the door only to find out later that I had been wheeled into another room through the back, and even after the surgery was done they wouldn't let her into the room where I was "waking up" for a while. She told me she thought something had gone wrong for them to sneak around with me like that. Now I wonder if something did go wrong or what I did or said during surgery, and if I was in pain, but it's impossible to know because I have no memory.

Melanie

Unknown said...

Dear Folks, I feel your pain. I am a nurse anesthetist with over 27 years of experience. Every single day I watch as patients are given this drug needlessly. I very rarely administer midazolam for all the reasons I read above. There is a subset of patients who desire to be heavily sedated before they ever leave their families. I accommodate this request of course, but first I have a calm caring conversation with my patient about their specific fears. Sedation anesthesia is very challenging. Most of the time what we call sedation is actually a variation of a general anesthetic. An oversedated patient will loose the ability to cooperate. They may misinterpret sensations causing them to respond inappropriately. For instance, an elderly patient presents for a cataract surgery may think that a drop of water tricking down her face is a fly and move to swat it away. This prompts the staff to restrain her or administer more sedation when what she really needed was a different medication and some reorientation. Ask questions. Take control of your care. Tell the professionals caring for you what you expect.

Melanie said...

(Sorry if my English is weird, I'm from Germany.)

I've been doing my research and stumbled upon this article by German endoscopists, who are actually very dissatisfied with the widespread use of versed/midazolam, and so they surveyed endoscopists on their experience with treating sedated patients on what level of pain they think their patients have (since asking an amnesiac patient can never provide you with a realistic answer, the endoscopists rightfully surmised).

Even though I knew midazolam does nothing against pain, I had no idea it was this bad:

77% of endoscopists utilized midazolam for sedation. Ninety-eight percent of the questioned physicians felt that patients have pain during endoscopy with midazolam+/-opioid, but do not remember later. Ninety-two percent reported that it happens that patients moan aloud because of pain and almost half of the endoscopists (48%) reported of screaming. The majority of the endoscopists (91%) reported fierce defense movements with midazolam or the need to hold the patient down on the examination couch because of fierce movements, respectively (75%). Seventy percent of the endoscopists wished to have the rooms for endoscopy preferably soundproof away from the waiting room and 93% wished for better sedative agents."

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/6342516_Midazolam-pain_but_one_cannot_remember_it_A_survey_among_Southern_German_endoscopists

Kathy S said...

I had surgery last thursday. Due to me not trusting the doctors in Tampa FL to not give me versed, I wrote "NO VERSED" in magic marker on both of my arms, had a red allergy bracelet with it listed as an allergy and wrote "No Versed under any cirucumstances, allergic!!" on every concent form I signed. I was asked by the anesthiologist "why don't you want Versed, I've never had anyone complain or have had any problems with it?" My response to him was "Are you f*cking kidding me??" Versed ruined my life.
I wonder what more I can possibly do not to have this battle every time I have surgery or some sort of procedure that they want to sedate you for. Now my doctor wants me to have an upper endoscopy (I had one and I swore never ever again,) to see if my stomach surgery is healing properly internally. I'm desperately trying to get out of it, but if I'm forced to do this, I will definitely opt for no sedation, just the throat numbing spray (which tastes worse than vomit,) and preferably do the procedure through my nose like I've seen on youtube.

Unknown said...

I need to speak to someone about this. This just hapened to me and I just did research about this. I had horrible experience and was too not informed about this concious sedation. I too felt le I was having a heart attack and had episode of troubke breathing. Also I was being severly held down and traumatized.

Unknown said...

Can Tim contact me. I need guidance in how handle exposing problems I faced with this concious sedation drug.

Unknown said...

Can Tim contact me. I need guidance in how handle exposing problems I faced with this concious sedation drug.

Never Again said...

Zarina start with your state Board of Health and Welfare. File a complaint. File a formal complaint with the hospital, the anesthesia group etc. If it was a crna and not an actual anesthesiologist (MD) then file a formal complaint with the Anesthesia Nurse oversight board. File a complaint with the JCAHO. You may have to hound them, the JCAHO is slow to respond. Leave comments, like you did here all over the web.

natsuki said...

Wow there are a ton of comments here far to many for me to read them all.. so forgive if I'm repeating something that has already been said.

I had to have upper gastrointestinal endoscopy done with some balloon dilation and biopsies taken. This is the first time I've ever been faced with the sedation question. I had to have the procedure done without sedation of any kind and only an oral anesthetic (administered by a squirt bottle) due to certain circumstances. The procedure was quite smooth, no problems. I have a followup endoscopy soon and will have that done with some level of sedation so that I can compare the two experiences.

What has me concerned, though, is after reading about sedation procedures I find that a lot of times drugs are used that cause memory loss. The reasoning being that if it is an unpleasant experience it is okay because you won't remember it. That scares me. I would much rather that proper pain management be done such that there is no need to force loss of memory of the event.

What is the proper way to communicate this to medical professionals so that they understand? I'm not concerned about the endoscopy.. as I said, I had it done without sedation and it was fine.. but I'm wondering about if/when I have actual surgical procedures come up in the future that could involve pain. What terms would those of you reading this suggest I use to make it clear to my providers that I DO want pain management and prevention but I DO NOT want memory loss? I want to know what happened to me while I am awake.. whether good or bad. Or if they have to put me to sleep and I wake up I want to remember waking up.

Any thoughts?

Dorene said...

This is so upsetting, to find out I was given something to make me forget pain, instead of giving pain meds. I knew something was wrong, just not what. Thank you for this site.

Rahket said...

I would suggest that patient "compliance" is a factor. To an independent, strong person, to be in such a state is repugnant. Doctors have to remember their place on the team. The patient, the PROJECT LEADER, is in charge, not you. Keep him or her in the dark, or administer undiscussed médications, you're FIRED!

I also have been administered Versed with little disclosure on two occasions. The phrase "waking amnesia" nor anything remotely similar never came up. The service department at my Toyota dealership is far more up front and accomodating than most doctors I've hired (and fired).

I don't want to be any more controlling than I have to be. I want people on my team who know who's in charge and who don't need to be micro managed. I managed large projects in the mainframe industry for thirty years... doctors hate my guts.l

Rahket said...

Doctors and nurses are team ymembers... the patient is the PROJECT LEADER. Forget that and you get replaced. Through 30 years in industry managing projects, I know how to crack the whip when approptiate. Doctors hate my guts, labelling me "difficult". Been called worse... you're still off the team.

Dani said...

Not sure how active this place is, but I will throw my experience in here real quick. I had major surgery in 2010, before my 20th birthday. I was given something "to relax" before we got started and I was just in the hospital gown, hanging out with and talking to my family and friends like normal. I began to feel severe paranoia, and a strange sense of compliance - like I was trapped in my own body while I smiled and nodded. Unfortunately my memory shuts down after that like a black hole just sucked everything up, I don't recall my family even leaving the room.

It's taken a very long time to finally understand what's gone wrong with me over these years and I genuinely just felt I was going crazy until I began to research and understand Versed. My memory timeline of before surgery is spotty and I've lost many childhood memories that used to be there before. Instead of being able to play back events in my mind, it's more just like the occasional picture. My family or friends will attempt to talk with me about things in our past that I used to speak about all the time or confirmed at one point I remembered them, and I'll have no idea what they're talking about. I will constantly run into people whose face I somewhat recognize and have to play the "fishing game" and pretend to know them until I get some answers...including forgetting someone I worked with for 6 months until I was reminded of who they were, and thankfully managed to remember a few things about them after that. It's incredibly awkward. Thankfully it seems I do tend to still remember things that are very important to me, and I still catch on to new ideas and processes at work quickly. It's the remembering part that's harder.

Wrapping this up, I think I have one of the more severe cases of Versed dysphoria, so if something comes up that you MUST have this drug, your chances of this type of problem is probably very low. I was diagnosed with PTSD by a pain therapist not long after surgery and I'm thankful I have answers, but it is genuinely a shame at my young age I have such horrible problems with my memory, and I used to have such a sharp mind before all that. It is what it is, that surgery saved my life, so I don't regret it - but I do wish I had asked questions and been able to refuse the Versed.

-Tim said...

Blog Owner responding- I keep an eye on this, and try to regularly maintain the links on the Links page. Your story is common here.

You have to "fake it until you make it". I just stubbornly persisted at getting on with my life - the weird flashbacks faded after a few years (!) and my memory seems to have bounced back. Play chess, play a musical instrument, read, engage in political debate . . . exercise every part of your brain - you only need to compete with yourself. I think things will most likely improve. As my Dad once said, "you have to attack the problem!"

Jm said...

I received this without my knowledge when I got my c-section. I cannot remember anything about my sons birth. I feel so dissapointed as this is a once in a lifetime experience and I got robbed of all my memories of his birth. Can I do anything about this???

No more versed said...

I shared 2 years ago my terrible experience when the anesthesiologist gave me Versed with Propofol for general anesthesia even tho I had said no Versed. That was for a hip replacement and just last week I had to have the other hip replaced. I chose another hospital (nationally known Trauma 1) in another state. My surgeon supported ny decision not to receive Versed. The anesthesiologist insisted for 10 minutes that. Versed could not possibly have caused the severe effects I had endured. He blamed them all on Propofol even tho I’ve had that drug repeatedly with no problems. Eventually he gave up and gave me a spinal without a Versed. I thought I would also receive Propofol as soon as I was on the operating table but amazingly what I thought was an an anesthesia area was actually the OR and I was already on the table. I was moved onto my back and a nurse removed my gown. She opened up my legs to give me a catheter, but another nurse asked her to help her find a file. So she left me in that vulnerable position for 5-7 minutes while she looked for a file and 4 male medical staff walked around me. Since I had a spinal, I couldn’t close my legs and I had no gown to cover up. IVs in both arms preview even using my hands. Then 2 of the males in the room used their bare hands to position me on my side and place pads and sponges under various parts and areas of my body obviously handling my boobs, butt and legs. Propofol must have then been administered because the last thing I remember is smelling betodine and feeling my body being wiped.
Why was I not sedated with Propofol before the catheter and positioning? Did they forget that I didn’t have Versed and would remember this treatment? Or was this punishment for refusing Versed? When asked for hospital feedback, I mentioned this treatment and am waiting for a call from the hospital.

Anonymous said...

They weren't punishing you. You were treated like all other patients, but they probably didn't know that you didn't have Versed. Medical people often forget that what's routine for them is NOT routine for the patient. They probably didn't even realize that they were treating you with a lack of dignity, but THEY WERE !
What is puzzling to me is the fact that you didn't speak up. I would have asked to be covered up, but would definitely not have mentioned that I wasn't given Versed. (They might have given it to you then, even against your wishes, thinking it was an oversite ! ) And their response to you would have been very telling. Would they have said, "You won't remember this anyway," or would they have covered you up ? I wonder...
It is my opinion and experience that patients are treated differently when they don't think you'll remember. Sad fact.
By the way, prepping you and positioning you for the surgery could have been done in a
respectful and dignified way, allowing you to maintain your modesty.
Please post the hospital feedback when you get it. They will most likely defend themselves rather than apologize...OR, once again, defend their precious drug.

Kathy S said...

A remark that was just made that says Versed works for them.....what is he doing posting on this blog spot. That’s fine it works for him ... but what about the rest of the world??? Versed left me totally disabled. Agoraphobic, trypanophobic, depressed and anxious with frequent panic attacks and a 15 year memory loss. I’m sorry, this drug is POISON. I can’t believe the FDA approved it for use on human beings. It wiped out my memory. I can’t ANY procedure that can justify permanent memory loss, anxiety, depression and PTSD. It’s my life’s work to get Versed banned from being used on people or animals. It does harm. Doesn’t do ANY good. I’m guessing that it must make All Mighty Big Pharma Rich.
I thank god I moved to NY where they don’t use Versed. Yes In Florida they use it until like candy. I have it listed an allergy I’ve had that garbage twice and both times had a paradoxical reaction. Never again!! I warn everyone. Please pass this on.

Drunkasaurus said...

I was researching Versed because I kind of thought it was a miracle drug. Shocked to see that so many people don't like it. I had my first surgery ever (liver biopsy) a few days ago and it was something I had been dreading for weeks and actually had panic attacks about. Within a minute after being given Versed I thought to myself "well, a biopsy needle is just a big needle, and I've had needles in my arm tons of times so what's the big problem with a bigger needle in my side?" I suddenly felt no care or inhibitions about what was going on and all my fear went away, all within less than a minute. I was amazed such a powerful drug existed because I just never had any idea that something like that was possible. I had a bit of amnesia, but I remember most of what happened and the surgeon and nurses were all very kind and talkative with me through the whole procedure. Wouldn't have minded forgetting all about it though; not sure why that's such a big issue for some people. I guess I just wanted to say that I think our doctors are trying to help us by prescribing this medicine and when it works properly it makes perfect sense why they use it. Sorry it doesn't work for you guys and I wish you the best.

AMDMiller said...

I am one of those unfortunate paradoxical reaction patients. I have had several horrific experiences; being held down by 4 nurses after injection for a lumbar puncture!! I have had colonoscopy canceled because they could not hold me still and refused to use general anesthesia. I have been thrown out of ERs after trauma accidents because they gave me the drug, then accused me of being on illicit drugs, verbally aggressive, combative and IT WAS EVEN LISTED AS AN ALLERGY on my medical alert bracelet...but I was still thrown out after getting my scalp and leg put back together!! Rawr.

Biker said...

Sedation makes me ill and so a few years back I finally started saying no. Since then I have had 3 colonoscopies, an upper endoscopy, and a T.E.E. w/o sedation. None were a big deal for me, and I have had the benefit of not being ill for a day following the procedures. In order to get doctors to agree to no sedation I had to switch to a large teaching hospital 1.5 hours away vs the small local hospital where I live (rural area) but it has been worth it.

One of the side benefits I have come to realize is that hospital staff has to be more mindful of the patient's privacy/modesty when the patient isn't sedated. They can't just leave the patient exposed more than was necessary. I suspect this is why they sedate patients before prepping them. For example, with my T.E.E., not being sedated meant I only had to remove my shirt vs needing to remove everything if I were sedated. There were two female RN's in the room. During the procedure I heard one whisper to the other "he's so cute, too bad he's not sedated". It's not too much of a leap to guess how they'd of entertained themselves had I been sedated and naked under a sheet. Makes me wonder how I was treated years ago when I did get sedated for procedures.





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